Are Laptops For Sale or Not?

[amarok]

@sidetracked1

Seems like Purism either doesn’t care at all or is a vaporware organization.

Is it really necessary to insult?

[sidetracked1]

@amosbatto

Purism stopped selling the Librem 15 a couple weeks ago

So they just haven’t had the courtesy to remove the listing from their website because they want people like me to spend 10 minutes every day filling out the stupid online order form only to be told that it’s not actually available? Like an every-day April Fools joke? Funny.

@amosbatto

Obviously, the web site needs to be updated,

You think? You said “weeks” right? A company that cares would take minutes. I’ve written more complaints than time it takes to fix it.

[sidetracked1]

@amosbatto

@MrChromebox is Matt DeVillier , who develops the Coreboot port for Librem devices, so you did get a reply from a Purism employee.

Sounds more like a contractor, and remember he is the one who called out the marketing BS that Purism put on the website.

[sidetracked1]

@amarok

Is it really necessary to insult?

If stating facts like these is insulting, then the problem is Purism, not the person pointing out that the Purism is a problem.

[amosbatto]

@sidetracked1

Sounds more like a contractor, and remember he is the one who called out the marketing BS that Purism put on the website.

I have no idea whether @MrChromebox is an employee or a contractor, but the software developers that work for Purism will often answer technical questions if you ask them, and they will often give you a clearer picture than the marketing on the website. One of the reasons why I support Purism is because it develops its software in public with open bug trackers and encourages its developers to answer the community’s questions.

[Kyle_Rankin]

@sidetracked1

I looked at ordering a 15" laptop. I guess you can’t? Is this wrong:

So I looked at refurbished. Looks good until I choose a keyboard. When I do that, I have one option: UK. Great. But… that is out of stock. So, if the only version that you can sell has a keyboard that it doesn’t have, why do you have a listing up for a laptop? Do you expect to ship a laptop without a keyboard? Does anyone actually check the Store web page?

Same thing with 13"

I’m surprised at all the anger and confusion in this thread. Sometimes companies discontinue products. We’ve done that many times in our past as we’ve made transitions from, say, Librem 13v3 to Librem 13v4. Sometimes in those cases we have some additional refurbished stock and customers are interested in buying it at a discount so we still offer the discontinued product in our shop, subject to availability. Sometimes we have zero refurbished stock, and then get a return that we refurbish and sell, which then shows up as stock in the shop.

We discontinued the Librem 13 at the same time we announced the Librem 14, and at that point redirected incoming traffic to the Librem 13 product page on our site to the Librem 14 page, but still left refurbished Librem 13 as an item in the shop so we could potentially sell them as we got any in.

The same thing happened more recently with the Librem 15 and we redirected incoming traffic for our Librem 15 product page to the Librem 14. We discontinued the Librem 15, sold out of it, but still have a listing for it in our shop for refurbished versions. That model in the past has had different keyboard layouts and so that sometimes appears as a drop-down in the shop. It’s possible that some bug caused that keyboard option to appear even in the event of 0 inventory.

It’s also possible that we may end up with more refurbished Librem 15s in the next month or two.

[Kyle_Rankin]

Up until a week or so ago, I had also thought (apparently mistakenly) that the same ME process we used in the past would also work with the CPU in the L14. It looks like we can only do the disable part for now, which is of course a shame. If it mentions “disabled and neutralized” on any of our marketing, that would simply be based on that initial mistaken assumption that this new CPU and ME would be able to have the same treatment.

I’ll look into fixing that now if it’s on the product page still.

[MrChromebox]

@sidetracked1

Sounds more like a contractor, and remember he is the one who called out the marketing BS that Purism put on the website.

I can’t fathom upon what information you’re making that assumption, but it’s incorrect.

[amarok]

Hold on a sec… We have to base internet comments on real information now???

Lol!

[SickleCell]

@MrChromebox does the problem neutralizing the librem 14’s intel ME extend to the librem mini v2? In other words, is the mini v2’s ME disabled and neutralized or just disabled?

[user_pureos]

I have the same question about Librem Mini v1 (with Intel Core i7-8565U CPU) - it has disabled and neutralized or just disabled Intel ME?

[MrChromebox]

@user_pureos

I have the same question about Librem Mini v1 (with Intel Core i7-8565U CPU) - it has disabled and neutralized or just disabled Intel ME?

@SickleCell

@MrChromebox does the problem neutralizing the librem 14’s intel ME extend to the librem mini v2? In other words, is the mini v2’s ME disabled and neutralized or just disabled?

The Librem Mini v1, v2, and Librem 14 all have the ME disabled only

[reC]

i don’t really know how this work internally so forgive me if i assume too much … when we dl and flash a new Coreboot/Pureboot version on the LMv1/v2 and L14v1, does that mean we also install updates to the intel-microcode but in a disabled but NOT neutered state ?

[MrChromebox]

@reC

i don’t really know how this work internally so forgive me if i assume too much … when we dl and flash a new Coreboot/Pureboot version on the LMv1/v2 and L14v1, does that mean we also install updates to the intel-microcode but in a disabled but NOT neutered state ?

microcode updates and the ME are unrelated. The ME firmware is not updated as part of coreboot updates.

[user_pureos]

@MrChromebox

The Librem Mini v1, v2, and Librem 14 all have the ME disabled only

It’s so sad to hear that.
This means, that all people, who bought a Librem Mini last year (including myself), were misled. Because all of the last year, in the product description it was written, that Intel ME is disabled and neutralized (exactly the same, as in the description of previous laptops).

I don’t understand, why Purism discontinued previous laptops with a truly disabled and neutralized Intel ME, while they can’t neutralize ME in the new processors.
They could at least use old processors in the new products (Librem Mini, Librem 14), while they can’t neutralize ME in the new processors. Why not do so?

Also, I think, it would be a good idea to divide all products into 2 categories: 1) products, focused on maximum privacy and security (less powerful, but with really disabled and neutralized Intel ME);
2) products, more focused on power and high performance (with the new processors, discrete GPU, etc.).
We really need this separation of the products.

[fsflover]

@user_pureos

Also, I think, it would be a good idea to divide all products into 2 categories

This of course sounds like a good idea, but it would require a lot of resources to manage more products, which Purism probably does not have. Not even speaking about the very small market for such devices…

[Amstram]

@user_pureos

This means, that all people, who bought a Librem Mini last year (including myself), were misled. Because all of the last year, in the product description it was written, that Intel ME is disabled and neutralized (exactly the same, as in the description of previous laptops).

The people who preordered the Librem 14 were misled too.
I find curious that they announced the Librem 14 with a neutralized ME but knowing very well that it was not possible to neutralized it on the Librem mini. Ok, its not the same CPU but it should have send some kind of warning. I find also curious Kyle’s answer that he was surprised to learn (several months after the announcement of Librem 14) that it was not possible to neutralize the ME. I think that the head of security at purism should have been aware of this, long before anyone else.

[irvinewade]

@user_pureos

They could at least use old processors in the new products

Just for discussion …

• because Intel is going in the other direction and so Purism could forever be locked into old processors and eventually would have no processors at all(!)

• because I don’t know whether the CPU is socketed on the Mini i.e. could not be made current if at some future point in time a current CPU gets neutralized

Intel is the problem. There is no future with Intel if you want full control over the software on your computer (and AMD is the same problem).

[amosbatto]

@Amstram

I find curious that they announced the Librem 14 with a neutralized ME but knowing very well that it was not possible to neutralized it on the Librem mini.

You are implying that this was a deliberate deception on Purism’s part, but it was Purism employee Matt DeVillier (MrChromebox) who is told us that the Intel ME can’t be neutralized (~90% of the code replaced with zeros) in the L14 and Mini, so this doesn’t look like a case of deliberate deception.

To me this looks like a case of poor communication within the company and there only being one employee who does the Coreboot ports and really knows the technical details. The articles on the Purism web site about the neutralized ME were written before DeVillier joined the company and DeVillier works remotely, so it doesn’t surprise me that the changes in the ME may have not been communicated inside the company.

It is also worth pointing out that Purism was the first company to sell PCs with a disabled ME and was the only company (as far as I know) that sold PCs with the ME neutralized. At this point, System76, TUXEDO Computers and ThinkPenguin also disable the ME, but I doubt that would have happened if Purism hadn’t done it first and provided the commercial pressure for the other Linux laptop sellers.

[irvinewade]

@amosbatto

At this point, System76, TUXEDO Computers and ThinkPenguin also neutralize the ME,

Conversely, I doubt that those other three companies have so far had more success in fighting Intel’s latest CPUs.