Bad blood in the forums

[Sharon]

@dnesto

As long as people understand the difference between constructive complaints and just being downright nasty,

Who will be the judge of that? I mean, you, I and Jane Doe have different opinions as to what people may say or not say. Someone has to be in charge and that will soon be AI. I don’t know how Irvine will feel about being replaced by a energy guzzler like AI.

@dnesto

On the other hand, nasty comments are not constructive and create a toxic atmosphere, which has been rightly called out here as “bad blood.”

Another opinion IMO. Are you ready to define “constructive” and “toxic”? Maybe, it would be faster, cheaper and amicable if we leave that poop up to the Moderator’s that make the decision.

When you don’t like a post, or anyone else doesn’t like it, they can Flag it, and from my experience, will hide the post from everyone except the author and any Mods notify the author that they have 10 minutes to edit the post or it’s gone.
The 10 minute notice assume the author is always online 24/7.

I can understand people getting, as Trump put it, “very really upset” and hammer out their frustrations on the cause of the issue.

Some people will back up the source of the problem with loads of over-the-top platitudes for the company. The other end of the posting spectrum.

In the end, there can be no toxic, nasty posts. If anyone doesn’t like what a person has to say, or
temperature of post, then one may Flag and hide the posts or responses.
One may also block (hide) someone and their posts/replies.

Supporting your view, I too have seen some nasty posts - but I understand why.
Too, for most company’s that have a forum, it keeps a riled-up customer home rather than the customer blasting through any number of Review, competitor, and/or similar product or service sites leaving negative posts listing the faults, the service and support they didn’t get at the home of the product or service they complain about.

So you see, there are lot of ways to censor a post you feel is “nasty”. But you already know that.

~s

My replies are just my opinions - nothing more nothing less. I may not agree with you, but I value your input.

[irvinewade]

@Sharon

Who will be the judge of that? I mean, you, I and Jane Doe have different opinions as to what people may say or not say.

Indeed. Good questions with no perfect answers.

I would say though that, first and foremost, it should be judged by the person making the post.

1. Whatever the post says, would the poster want the same being said of themselves? If the answer is “no” then just don’t make the post.
2. Apply the 24 hour rule i.e. if you are hot under the collar about something then whatever the post says don’t post but instead save the text in your preferred text editor, wait 24 hours, then review the text to see whether it is still what you want to post.

@Sharon

Are you ready to define “constructive”

One of the traditional attributes of something that is “constructive” is that ultimately it presents a solution, not just a problem or, at least, spells out the desired outcome (potentially as distinct from how that outcome should be achieved).

I think we all know what is a good problem report - thoroughly investigated first, with specific and accurate details as to what the customer did, what the customer’s environment is, what the expected outcome was, what the actual outcome was - versus vague venting.

So it can come down to … not what you may say, but how you say it.

@Sharon

One may also block (hide) someone and their posts/replies.

Yes, you can mute a topic and you can mute a user - but that isn’t the answer to toxicity, at least as far as the OP is concerned - because after all you can “mute the whole forum” simply by not visiting and that seems to apply in respect of this topic (“hit and run” OP).

[dnesto]

I believe it is mostly common sense but goes like that:

• Constructive - focus on being specific, offer actionable suggestions, and keep the tone respectful and aimed at improvement.
• Toxic - avoid personal attacks, vague criticism, and overly harsh language that doesn’t help the other party understand how to improve.

Everyone has their moments. I got triggered by the text linked in the first post (“Worst laptop Ive ever had”) of this thread. However, delaying that initial reaction makes difference. Editing your own comment to make it constryuctive helps too.

The linked post in the first comment is toxic because -

• It uses harsh language an swear words - it communicates anger and animosity
• Lacks constructive criticism - it goes into generalisations, there are no actionable suggestions for improvement, it simply insults wihtout looking for solution. Clearly the message was there to hurt as a result of internal anger and frustrations.
• Personal attacks - the text attacks personally the team at the company. It wasn’t designed to give feedback but to degrade the organisation.
• No room for dialogue - there is no room for improvement or even dialogue suggested in the post

Overall, toxic degrades the motivation for cooperation and improvement between people in a group or community. Constructive however, enchances the cooperation and motivation.

[Sharon]

@irvinewade

but that isn’t the answer to toxicity

Everyone is still permitted to ride their own definition of “toxicity”.
There is no answer to what you, or others define what “toxicity” is here.

I have read the posts where people were ignored. I doubt you or @dnesto would sit back and be ignored for over 2 years. I’m not talking about MY two years BTW.

“refund” and “ghosted” is used together in *1,660 times posts here.

Naw. I’ve read too posts every where that people need to remain calm, do nothing, and wait - maybe they’ll get a answer - but I haven’t seen any positive responses to those poor victims.

The tools are here for anyone to report, or hide posts, and users.
If whomever doesn’t like people’s spelling, or negativity, ignore it, or block/mute them - move on. They’ll be wasting their time telling others how a post should be.

Anger and venting in a post isn’t something that just pops in to someone’s mind. Most complaints, Pollyanna-style or not, happen because someone has a problem with a Puri product. Negativity is something that simmers too long that turns into a full boil boil. Just as a post with praises for Puri are earned, so are any negativity earned. And I understand that the person is human, and earned the right to feel they have take to another level because they have followed the pollyanna approach many times on their issue to no avail. Should they just go away and forget it.

IMO, you both are suggesting that even though people are ghosted along with their money, they should wuss their complaint. Would anyone rather that they take their anger to your Office of the Attorney General and file a complaint there.

In the end, again, the mods may control content and interpret what is and isn’t “toxic” or too ‘negative’. And, we can all mute/block or simply move by at the first sign of anything one feels is out of their bounds.

[dnesto]

Everyone is free to define “toxicity” as they see fit, but at some point, we need a shared understanding of certain terms to have productive discussions. Otherwise, it becomes impossible to address concerns meaningfully.

To be clear, I am not employed by Purism, nor do I have any affiliation with them - I’m simply a customer who has had both good and not so good experiences with their products. My perspective is based on personal experience rather than any obligation to defend the company.

I fully acknowledge that some customers may have had frustrating experiences, including long periods of being ignored. I’ve seen the complaints, and I don’t dismiss them. However, the claim that “refund” and “ghosted” appear in 1,660 posts needs context. These could be replies within the same threads rather than unique complaints, making the number less indicative of widespread issues. To get a fair and balanced view, we should compare this figure to the total number of posts on the forum and the full user base to understand its proportion. Without that data, it’s easy to overestimate the scale of the problem based on the loudest voices.

Speaking from my own experience, I received a Librem 14 with two issues - random freezing and a non-functional keyboard backlight. I paid full price for the product, along with import taxes and shipping fees to Europe, so I completely understand the frustration when things don’t work as expected. The freezing issue was resolved by downgrading to PureBoot 29, and I was able to fix the backlight myself, thanks to the repairable design. I also own a Librem 5 and knew what I was getting into with it - I’m happy with the device. That’s my personal experience, and I’m sharing it not to dismiss others’ issues but to provide a more balanced perspective.

I don’t dispute that anger and venting stem from real problems. However, the way issues are presented matters. Expressing frustration is understandable, but if it crosses into hostility or toxicity, it hinders rather than helps. Constructive criticism, backed by facts and reasonable expectations, is far more effective than a constant cycle of negativity.

If someone has truly exhausted all options and feels they’ve been wronged, they absolutely have the right to escalate their complaint through formal channels like consumer protection agencies. But conflating every negative experience with outright deception or fraud does not lead to fair or balanced discussions.

Ultimately, moderation exists to ensure discussions remain productive rather than descending into hostility. Everyone has the choice to engage, ignore, or mute posts as they see fit. Respectful debate and criticism are valuable, but excessive negativity without constructive input benefits no one.

[Sharon]

@dnesto

conflating every negative experience with outright deception or fraud

I have a gut feeling that “deception” and “fraud” are personal opinions of what you didn’t like to read, but read you did anyway.

I feel that many people in forums anywhere feel as you do. But I must ask, why do you let what you don’t like feed your posts?

What is everyone could ban what they don’t like?

I don’t like some stuff I read, but I move on knowing that anything I might say may only exacerbate the temperature.

I think that by now we understand each other and share some of the points you make and any continuance would just repeat again.

Have a good one ‘dnesto’.
~f

[dnesto]

Sharon, relying on a gut feeling to assume my intent is a classic example of the mind-reading fallacy -assuming to know what someone thinks or why they say something without actual evidence. My argument isn’t based on personal dislike of certain words, it’s about the responsible use of strong claims like “fraud” and “deception,” which imply intentional wrongdoing. These accusations should be backed by facts, not assumptions.

Just because some see negativity as a justified reaction doesn’t mean everyone who challenges it is doing so out of personal discomfort. Scrutinising claims isn’t about shutting down criticism, it’s about making sure discussions remain fair and accurate.

Have a good one!

[Sharon]

@dnesto

we need a shared understanding of certain terms to have productive discussions

I believe those ‘terms’ are already there and just like humans, the terms are not perfect either.

@dnesto

I am not employed by Purism, nor do I have any affiliation with them - I’m simply a customer who has had both good and not so good experiences with their products.

Ditto.

@dnesto

claim that “refund” and “ghosted” appear in 1,660 posts needs context

“Context”? My curiosity had me re-testing, for ‘refund’ and ‘ghosted’ there are about “987 results” for forums purism +"L5" +"ghosted" +"refund" and “about 3,800 results” using "forums purism +"L5" +"thank you". Almost full, or almost empty?
Not scientific by any means - more like firing a blunderbuss But, IMO, a rough guesstimate should suffice.

@dnesto

Respectful debate and criticism are valuable, but excessive negativity without constructive input benefits no one.

I don’t know at what temperature of a post, or “excessive negativity” would have to be at where you might rate it as “Bad blood”.

@dnesto

Everyone has the choice to engage, ignore, or mute posts as they see fit.

Yup - have you used any of those options?

I blame some of the negativity on;
People looking for options excluding the duops, found the site, read the ads and bought one that is still years in the waiting for delivery. Refunds is another place to find what one might think is their level of bad blood.

So I am on the same track with you, can you reference any “Bad Blood” posts for me? PM/DM if you like. I’d understand why.
I could do the same, but anyone where I see a very offensive earns 2 strikes and they vaporize. 2 because the trigger post was strike 1. I don’t see their posts anymore. My issue with unpleasantness solved.

We’re all just human beings and that could be part of the problem but maybe that’s a good thing.
However, not being perfect and with the Internet’s unbridled help, we’re too in need of others to believe and adapt the same values as ourselves. We failed at adapting to the fad of recent years that went ‘Learn to be more tolerant of others.’

~s
Just opinions and having read this you agreed to allow me to access your digital devices.
Your privacy is important         3rd party partners for which I am not responsible for. If you have any            , or         please            your Administrator.

We mustn't take life too seriously.

~~~

@dnesto

Have a good one!

I repeat:

@Sharon

We mustn’t take life too seriously.

I don’t appreciate anyone taking my posts out context and using it against me.

Bye.
~s

[Xeda]

Thanks for all the answers and I am sorry for the late reply. I do not have a lot of free time lately.

The phrase in quotes, in my original post, is “how it sounds”, rather than a direct quote of something someone has said.

I think it would be nice to have an area for discussing our relationship with Purism and vent our frustrations out, and leave the technical discussions clean and direct to the point.

Thank you all.

[FranklyFlawless]

@Xeda

The phrase in quotes, in my original post, is “how it sounds”, rather than a direct quote of something someone has said.

@Xeda

Instead of “Folks, I am having an issue to charge my phone, here are the symptoms”, we often get “This is crap, Purism is crap, the product is a scam, you all go to hell, my phone does not charge”. Incredibly enough, the community still helps.

Quotation marks are typically used for direct quotes, not “how it sounds”.

@Xeda

I think it would be nice to have an area for discussing our relationship with Purism and vent our frustrations out, and leave the technical discussions clean and direct to the point.

There is a Purism subreddit if you want an actual echo chamber.

[OpojOJirYAlG]

@irvinewade

Who owns the problem?

Answer: We do. Not Purism.

It’s a community forum and most Purism staff either don’t visit the forum at all or visit it sparingly because it is often not helpful or constructive to do so. (So the venting becomes a vicious circle.)

Strongly disagree. Purism sets the tone. The tone they set by not being involved is that they don’t care.

For the community to respond to that lack of care with an adversarial bend is less than ideal and we can improve on that piece, but that doesn’t move the ownership away from Purism.

Also, if Purism does not want to manage their community image by engaging with the community, they are equally capable of removing the community forum. If a different community forum were to exist outside of Purism then I would agree that ownership would fall to that community.

[skyvine]

@OpojOJirYAlG

The tone they set by not being involved is that they don’t care.

This is complicated. It can be tricky to have staff members engage in a community forum in a way that is genuine and integrates well with the spirit of a community forum. The best forums I have been on have a small number of community managers to deal with problems like harassment but are otherwise very hands-off, while the general tone is set by enthusiastic community members who truly love the product.

[OpojOJirYAlG]

@skyvine

It can be tricky

Sure, and not trying sends its own message.

The best community forums I’ve seen no longer have significant company involvement outside of visibility and moderation, however started with significant involvement to help shape the community they wanted to foster. Typically this is best when founding/core leadership is genuinely interested and involved rather than hiring dedicated community management staff.

Without that shaping and initial involvement the core message being sent is “we dont care enough about the community to be involved and you’re on your own”.

[JCS]

Todd has repeatedly assured me that he does not intend to actively participate in the forums, as he prefers to concentrate on investment, sales, and larger opportunities moving forward. Purism must expand its Public Relations department, rather than pulling from existing staff to manage such issues. I am currently the closest we have to a Community Outreach Manager, but my responsibilities have greatly expanded outside the forums, and I have much less time to dedicate than I used to when my forum contributions were purely in my free time. Until that situation changes, I plan to remain an advocate for the community and a voice for Purism to clear up misconceptions.

I do see this improving, however, once we overcome a couple priority issues (e.g. the support ticket backlog, onboarding new staff, supplier/inventory communication).

[skyvine]

FWIW, I really appreciated the way you handled the pronouns thread which is a sensitive topic that’s really difficult to get right.

[Xeda]

Todd may underestimating the importance of Purism’s interaction with the community.

Imagine you want to get to the Librem 5, or any Purism device. You go online to try to get more information about it.

Most of YouTube’s reviews are very old, bad and quite unfair in my opinion.
So you go to the forums and read around. Would you actually be encouraged or discouraged by what you see?

I work for a 10 person startup and I am trying to convince our CTO to give open source a chance instead of going all-in on MSFT for our ISO certification. We need phones. I’ll probably just let our CEO use my Librem 5 for a while rather than get him to “read about Purism on the internet”.

Also, if we are going to have 10 phones, we would need to be sure that we get responses. I believe that, if we would have 10 phones in the hands of 10 highly technical users (thus tolerant when it comes to usability quirks), support would probably be better. But would our CEO be willing to risk it all after reading people complain so much about “no response from support”?

Being understaffed is a completely reasonable reason to not be responsive. But there are other ways: product withdrawal notices going to the blog (so people don’t have to wonder what is going on), roadmaps (they can change, but keep the page where it is hosted updated), etc, etc…

[Xeda]

English is not my native language and no, I am not looking for echo chambers. Far from it. =)))

[FranklyFlawless]

Well here is the aforementioned subreddit if you ever reconsider:

Beautiful Freedom. (*cough*: YMMV)

Screenshot:

[Sharon]

@FranklyFlawless

https://redlib.franklyflawless.org/r/purism

For me using the link, I get:

redlib.

Failed to parse page JSON data: expected value at line 1 column 1 | /r/purism/hot.json?&raw_json=1

Reddit Status

This instance is not up to date and is 3 commits old. Test and confirm on an up-to-date instance before reporting.

Visit Random Instance

Expected something to work? Report an issue

Head back home?

Remember when the US’s South had “Disappointment rooms” built in to their mansions? It was where they kept their child if the child had issues such as unable to do anything without failing, mental health issues, could not communicate, could not interact with others, … 'nuff said
~s

[FranklyFlawless]

The Redlib instance has been updated to the latest commit (d097495a4182d0c9ba52ad9833171b2cab6d1a22), but regularily experiences ratelimiting by Reddit, so check back in an hour or so.