I think this idea that only Linux minded folks would be interested in free hardware, for example, is just plain wrong.
Many people are sick of the built in shelf life of products. Sealed batteries and non user expandable storage for example. You don’t have to love Linux to appreciate a hardware company that is doing something about that.
I know that Librem’s devices aren’t fully FOSS, but they’re the closest we’re likely to get for a while.
System76 would be my next bet, but they don’t run an open boot loader, and they don’t seem to be striving to free firmware. x86 is unfortunately the only viable architecture for a lot of software for the time being, which rules out other more free options.
The suggestion of using windows is not very helpful, given I have been working professionally as a software developer for half a decade now, and *nix OSes are far and away the best environment for this.
I’m not sure which GNU/Linux y’all are using, but Arch+Sway and Arch+Gnome have been really usable on a hiDPI device for quite some time now (I’m ignoring all non-wayland WMs). Given Ubuntu is basing back on Gnome, that means a hiDPI laptop makes perfect sense within GNU/Linux now.
1080p is sufficient if you’re the mythical “only uses email and web” user, but with people becoming used to hiDPI screens on their phones, a 1080p laptop is going to look bad by comparison even if all you do is check out your photo collection. Blender, Darktable, Ardour, GIMP, Inkscape, LibreOffice, etc. all exist too, so it’s absolutely not out of the question for creative professionals to want to use GNU/Linux. But designing on a 1080p screen is going to really set you back.
@Caliga makes a good point. Saying “you’re not a tinfoil hat/whistleblower” is gatekeeping. Why shouldn’t the focus be on providing an easy to use and competitively built/featured mainstream machine with a bit of a surcharge because it’s a small shop making secure and transparent devices?
Again, you can customize your build at checkout. It still makes sense to have hiDPI as an optional extra, and it’s becoming increasingly expected that this be available.
Everybody who buys from Purism currently, invests in a future where it is a normal, non-elitist thing to own devices that respect our freedom. Currently, this involves some idealism regarding price and features. But the price and feature gaps will close as Purism continues to grow.
Exactly @Caliga, couldn’t have said it better myself.
But, I think the ultimate concern of most everyone in this thread isn’t necessarily what is desirable, but what the focus should be, and what things should have priority. Even I agree that having a 5k 3D display as an option would be desirable, in a perfect world where Purism has infinite money.
However, and this might be because of my CS background, but I’m not terribly interested in something that compromises on security or privacy in any tiny way just to make a more user-friendly or “fancier” system. I appreciate the user-friendliness, since it saves time for everyone, including computer nerds. But I would have bought a Librem much earlier if, for example, it was based on an open-source CPU in an FPGA, instead of an Intel x86. Especially as someone who cares about the morality of my decisions, I don’t like that while I’m trying to make an ethical decision part of my money is being sent to Intel. I’m happy to give my money to Purism, not to Intel.
So while we agree that performance, price, and DPI are all secondary, I think we disagree on just how secondary it is. For you it’s a close second, but for myself and most of the other backers of private and secure projects those are a very, very distant second. Although the marketing and vision is for average families to have security and privacy easily accessible to them, and I agree that is a great goal to aim for one day, average families simply are not Purism’s core demographic and probably won’t be in the near future.
A great example of what I’m talking about is the ORWL “secure” computer. Not open-source at all. It simply self-destructs if it’s physically tampered with. And, of course, it only made a quarter of the amount the the Librem made when crowdfunded on the same site.
To an “average” family, a computer that self-destructs sounds much more secure than a laptop that is wide-open and lets you look at the source. To people with a CS background, however, it’s obvious the Librem is in fact more secure. And which one was more successful, the one that catered to the “nerd” demographic, or the one that catered to the “average” demographic?
An even better example: the Novena open laptop. This one catered even more strongly to the “nerd” demographic, and they made almost twice as much in their crowdfunding campaign, again on the same site.
The lesson here is simple: Don’t cater to the “average” demographic. They aren’t the ones buying Librems, or Novenas. If anything, the fact that the Novena made almost double what Purism did in their campaign is proof that Purism needs to cater even more to the “nerd” demographic.
My biggest concern is that if Purism indeed takes the route of catering to the “average” family, and increases the priority of DPI and user-friendliness etcetera, they will completely alienate their core demographic. You and I have very similar viewpoints, since we both value privacy and security as paramount, but I’m afraid your suggestion would not work well for Purism. A USB-C version, for example, would bring in a few more “average” customers, but would alienate their core demographic (due to compromising security), and their customer base would suffer; just like the ORWL vs Librem example from earlier.
I’m sure Purism is aware of the reasons for their success and won’t attempt to switch demographics until they either have nothing else to liberate or secure on their products, or they have so many resources that they can afford to allocate a small fraction to miscellaneous upgrades while still spending the majority of their work on what their backers really care about.
@2disbetter I’m afraid I don’t understand… It’s basically a tautology that only linux-minded folks would be interested in free hardware. Are you saying someone would buy a free hardware laptop, and then install windows on it? Why would they do that, unless they just don’t understand how computers work?
@darko For the record, I have nothing against a high-DPI option. If Purism had infinite money, then I would say, go for it, let’s have that option. But since they need to prioritize, it makes more sense to keep the demographic that got them where they are, then go for mass appeal. Replacing the x86 CPU, for example, will bring them much more sales volume than a higher DPI display, because of the same reasons I stated above in my response to Caliga. Consider the example of ORWL vs. Librem vs. Novena above.
No, I’m saying that being concerned about your hardware and the driving principles of Purism are not exclusive to Linux users. Not everyone can just drop everything and flock to Linux, but that doesn’t mean they don’t admire the company or its products.
Products like the Librem 5 have wide appeal, because most users are getting tired of sealed batteries at a minimum. Purism was able to demonstrate how the core functionality of today’s smartphones will be possible on it, and so now the leap from what the consumer usually knows to a platform that cares about them is not such a jump.
That’s all I’m saying.
I really like using trackpoint. Is there any way it can be added to the Librem 15. I can even add it myself if I know how.
I don’t think your comparison is completely fair.
You could also look at it that way: Some market saturation led to a decline in investments. You could also argue that both Librems target the same audience, so they got > $1,000,000, outnumbering the Novena. Also, higher absolute prices probably get you less pledges. So, it’s a bit arbitrary whom to declare as winner.
I’m also not so sure how sustainable the Novena is. Was it a crowd funding hype, or are they still selling numbers in a range fitting to the funding success? I’ve recently speculated here that Purism likely sells 500+ laptops per month, and likely growing.
To me, it’s a good sign that some want Purism to be even more bleeding edge while others whine it’s not OpenHardware enough. They will get both fixed as they grow. It’s likely that there will be a second laptop line with ARM or RISC-V chips, and eventually the Intel-laptops will be completely deblobbed. I mean, they are really close already.
Speaking for my house, there is potential to ~5 laptops plus ~5 phones plus ~5 routers/NAS devices from Purism, as they hopefully will expand in that direction (see link above).
And maybe one Novena for my sons. Or I get them 5 or 10 Raspberries and save some money 
Don’t get me wrong, I like that project. Just don’t have real use for it. I think Purism has just the right amount of pragmatism. Let’s look back in 5…10 years who had more impact: Purism or Novena.
So far we only talked about nerds and the “general public”. But there’s also companies. Just like the nerd who wants his relatives to be safe (and save himself some trouble), there are admins out there who know that their colleagues can do everything they have to with a Librem and be safer than with a Windows laptop. I’m pretty sure a fair amount of Librems go to companies who order them in batches. That will likely be the biggest area of growth before actually being in a position to place them at BestBuy.
Well… the Librem 5 will have a USB-C, the current Librem 13 also, and the first one already had USB 3. According to your link, USB 3 already is a nightmare, but USB 2 is not much better. You might want to discuss that with Kyle Rankin and Nicole Faerber, if they are aware of those problems and if they have plans to improve here. It does not sound like an unsolvable problem. Like, power down the ports unless explicitly activated.
Well I would also say that the goals of the two companies are not the same. One was making an interesting hobby tinker computer that just so happened to be FOSS, and the other is looking to make a laptop that is comparable to the current market space and would be able to leverage a wealth of software already available in that market space. Going beyond that they are looking to actually spread their position as a company by actually appealing to the average customer. IE: People need to know that they should have digital rights, etc.
By definition of their corporation type, they can’t be successful, if their market space doesn’t grow. Something Purism is posed and capable of doing.
The entire US DoD (all branches of the military, etc.) uses Windows on client machines as well as the Office suite. I know for a fact that windows 98, 2000, xp, 7, and 10 have been audited and vetted. In the case of Windows 10 granted they are using the enterprise version not available to the average consumer (which is just despicable MS).
While telemetry is probably what you are referring to with Windows, I think MS is a very seasoned company when it comes to security, just because they’ve had to be.
I sincerely hope companies like Purism gaining popularity help to revert the bad decisions MS, Google, and Apple have made. Windows, for example, just has such a massive collection of software that it is hard to not want this.
2d
You’re right, that’s another way to look at it… The Novena was released first, while both Librem campaigns combined raised more.
Also, the creators of the Novena had no intention of using it in their business model… Bunnie and Kousagi are really just tinkerers themselves, and afterwards released everything from a book on navigating Shenzhen for entrepeneurs to a sticker-based electronics kit for kids. In 5-10 years Purism will definitely have made a larger impact, simply because the Novena was a one-off project that’s mostly abandoned.
Nonetheless I think the Novena provides an important lesson on who exactly is currently buying open-source hardware.
I also wasn’t aware of the USB-C port currently on the Librem, haha… That’s unfortunate though. Mine is shipping right now, so I’ll have to look into what possible security the IOMMU might be able to provide, or else I’ll just physically remove it.
I think you bring up a good point on corporate purchases though, and this is something we as the public have little information about. Perhaps they make a significant percentage of total sales?
In the end I guess at least we agree that Purism is currently doing a good job, even though I care more about security and you care more about usability. I’m sure Purism will be able to keep us both happy 
@2disbetter Anyone who uses MS for a high-security or high-privacy application is incompetent, plain and simple. This isn’t really up for debate, ask anyone with computer security or privacy experience and they will tell you the same thing. You are right about the DoD… the USS Yorktown used Windows NT in its onboard systems for political reasons, and literally crashed and had to be towed back to port numerous times while at sea. That was a mistake on the DoD’s part.
I have to use Windows for software compatibility and I agree with you there. But it is absolutely 100% useless for security or privacy.
What @gnulligan says
But I can’t resist to add some remarks…
So… Win98 has been vetted? It’s not even really an OS. It’s a DOS-based UI. And it did not even pretend to be secure. You could gain local access, fore example, by just hitting Escape. Or do it the fancy way shown here. This cracked me up 
In the first decade of this millenium, this was sane security advice: “Don’t use Outlook (Express) or Internet Explorer. Or, at the very least, disable E-Mail previews, JavaScript, ActiveX controls and Shockwave/Flash”. Every other month, a vulnerability was discovered that proved this precaution to be very necessary. Things were so bad, that Bill Gates announced a focus shift for “Trustworthy Computing” in January 2002. Supposedly, development was stopped during February to focus on fixing security issues. (German source)
30 months later, there was this denial of a security flaw. [now, I’ll just skip 10 years…]
2014 a vulnerability was made known to MS, not fixed by mid-2015, bc. at least 64 bit systems should be reasonably safe (German source)
And in 2017 Microsoft refused to fix a 20 year old security issue because SMB should only be used behind firewalls anyway…
Now, don’t get me wrong… It also happens that 20 year old vulnerabilities are discovered in Linux based systems. But probably less frequently, and if discovered they are fixed within hours, without some marketing department trying to play it down.
Yes, things have gotten much better on the Windows side, but you cannot build trust for a black box by having it audited for several reasons. Obviously, the auditors didn’t find the flaws that later blew up. Also, why should I trust that they would disclose problems instead of using them for their own purposes? What’s the point of having an audit of a software that evolves as quickly as Windows 10 does?
Meh, auditing wasn’t what it is today back then, that’s for sure.
Valid, but what the dod uses and what the consumer uses are basically two different products. No feature updates and usually only security or critical patches.
But to get back on topic here, I’ll ask, is Qubes support still a thing? And if not, why?
I might add, with LTSB you are going to get zero feature updates for 2 years, and since most companies assume you aren’t using LTSB you’ll start running into all sorts of problems if you’re trying to use LTSB on a regular computer. For example, even graphics drivers generally will not work on LTSB if you’re trying to keep them up to date. Basically, M$ has noticed that most people would rather use LTSB than have cortana and ads shoved down their throats, so they are trying to make it as uncomfortable as possible to use LTSB for a desktop scenario.
NTLite is a much better option, and can make much smaller and lighter installations than even LTSB. 2 Gigabytes final installation size is possible if you know what you’re doing. Also, assuming your computer came with Windows, using NTlite would just count as a “reinstall” and you won’t need to worry about how safe/ethical your “FREELTSBnovirusipromise.iso” file is…
I use LTSB and have had no problems with any graphics issues or anything. Though, I have an Nvidia card and have never used AMD products, so I can only vouch for Intel + Nvidia configurations on the LTSB. And yes, I keep every single driver on my machines fully updated to the latest - checking every other week or so.
Also, what are “feature” updates anyway? By what I can tell I’m getting all the important security updates and all. If the “features” are the apps that come with Windows then I don’t want any “features” - I want Windows to just be an OS and some basic stuff like Notepad, Calculator, and MS Paint, hah. Everything else should be an application I install of my own volition.
My only peeve about the LTSB is that you cannot use any software from the Windows 10 marketplace - the W10 marketplace is designed so that, if you visit it in Windows 10 and click on a link there, it’ll attempt to launch the “Marketplace” app to download it… which doesn’t exist in the LTSB. Thus, things like “Minecraft for Windows 10” are just inaccessible. There may be a work-around though, I just never cared enough to look for one anyway (I use the Java Edition so I don’t need it).
But yeah, zero issues with performance in any application I use. In fact, far as I can tell the LTSB runs better at everything because it has none of the bloat that stock Win10 does.
I will look into the NTLite a little, but I’m pretty comfortable where I am. There was once a time I used “Win10Lite” to install the LTSB with even MORE stuff removed, but I don’t do that anymore. I stopped using the “privacy tools” in general due to issues like the one in that HowToGeek article pointed out - the softwares were changing things that could have unforeseeable consequences depending on what software you use, and while the modified systems were generally okay and operatable I was encountering odd problems often enough to stop doing it.
Yeah, LTSB is way better than stock Windows, but IMO NTLite (if used correctly) is also way better than LTSB. To each their own, but these “Feature updates” include non-security optimizations and better hardware support, as well as junkware. Also the guy behind NTLite, Dino Nuhagic, is pretty good and will personally respond to tech support emails even on weekends.
In my experience NTLite is able to remove even the capability to install junkware (though I also use it to remove the Windows Store in my installations so that may be the reason).
@2disbetter AFAIK Qubes will still run on the Librem just fine, but it can no longer be marketed as “Qubes-certified” due to licensing restrictions from the Qubes team. It’s kind of ironic because without the Librem, the Qubes Hardware Compatibility List is a complete mess.
I’ve been messing around on the Purism forums for a while, and I rather intend to finally buy one when the next revision of Librem 15 comes out (or heck, I’d love to see a Librem 17, and I just figured it’s not on the table of considerations) if there are some improvements made to it. What I’d like to see are namely a Quad-Core processor and an internal ethernet port. ECC memory would also be cool if you could implement it, but I know that may be iffier.
I mean seriously, a laptop as expensive as the Librem 15 should have more than just a wimpy dual-core clocked at 3.1Ghz. I wouldn’t want a dual-core even if they clocked over 4Ghz, because my current laptop is a quad-core clocked at over 4Ghz (4.2Ghz, and ~4.8Ghz Turbo) and it’s over 6 years old now.
I try to think of why you’d choose this, and I could only think of profit margins and… the design of the chassis. Looking at it, it’s one of those thin notebooks. This is probably the same reason that there’s no built-in ethernet port and one of the reasons lower-grade hardware is used. I see it all the time anymore, and it’s because these thin devices that trend in today’s tech world may be lightweight and cool looking, but they suck when it comes to ventilation and heat dissipation.
Ya know, some of us value performance over having our electronics as thin and quiet as possible. I’d personally love to see a performance-focused desktop replacement laptop from Purism - a Librem 17 if you will, sporting a premium 17" display and performance-grade internals. Quad-Core processor, ethernet port included heck if you could find a way to support proper standalone GPUs without needing proprietary drivers I’d love that (but I do understand that’s probably expecting way too much when your hands are already full trying to deal with Intel alone). You could make it fatter than the rest of the models with high-performance fans inside.
I mean, for all of that I’d be considering to drop a $2000 - $2500 base-price depending on what exactly you go with.
Anyway, at the very least I’d like to see the fourth revision of the Librem 15 bring some better performing hardware to the table. The thing that has me put-off about buying a Purism laptop right now is the price-to-performance ratio. I don’t feel like dropping nearly $3,000 (would put NVMe in it) on a laptop that runs on a dual-core. If that’s how it is I think I’d buy from OriginPC or build my own PC and just try figuring out ME_Cleaner myself - and if I can’t, to heck with it because at least I have a high-performance PC for the money then. I think I’d kinda regret dropping so much money over tinfoil hat stuff honestly. If I could get some better performance out of it then I probably wouldn’t be so hesitant to buy.
Just a few things I wanted to pitch. Guys like me bite for performance hardware and go for “desktop-replacement” systems. If it can’t compete with desktops then I don’t see why I would want a laptop as opposed to a desktop to begin with - the ability to carry around your computer is kinda nice but not huge to me. I mean your workplace always supplies you with a laptop that you have to do all your work on anyway… may as well just carry that around and have a nice desktop waiting for you at home.
Which is my final suggestion: Purism desktops. That would be pretty cool, if you’re willing to think about it.
Later!
PS: Would be really nice to see you get into routers as well. Pre-flash performance routers with pfSense.
i’d like to see some kind of desktop replacement or mini pc like the mac mini with more usb3 ports, an eth port and with a DP and hdmi
I think a lot of people are drawn to these things because of the disabled / neutered ME. I’d like to see a hardware only desktop (no OS) because I think there’d be a market for people wanting to chuck in some GPU’s and go Windows gaming without a gaping back door.
Pretty sure the reason they can’t do that is because their whole purpose and mission is to make a machine that runs completely open-source from the top down, and GPUs require proprietary drivers to run.
One of the biggest concerns is that those drivers are about as bad as the Intel ME in some ways too. NVIDIA for example with their built-in telemetry that’s enabled by default. And that’s just what we openly know about, we don’t know what’s in their source code.
If nothing else it’d be bad press for them to start including stuff like that even as an option unless they could make open-source drivers to run them. If you want to do something like that, I could only suggest getting or building your own computer and attempting to use ME_Cleaner yourself.
One new service I suppose they could provide is - offering MEless CPUs on their own, for anyone that wants to just order one straight from Purism?
Just so you know: The Librem 15 v1 was quad-core and had an Ethernet connector.
As you can see here in the Spring Product Design Update, beeing up-to-date is definitely more important to Purism than to the die-hard Libreboot guys who use 10 year old Thinkpads. I assume they will upgrade to a newer Intel microarchitecutre, but only after making sure everything runs smoothly and the ME can be disabled on it. Understandably, they also want to move closer to the goal of being blob-free.
As described here, it is not the same on every Intel CPU. I think I even read a statement that they need/want to test it on newer CPUs, but I couldn’t find it.
Hm. I guess it’s kind of a dilemma. If they stick to the current architecture, sales will probably stall. If they move to a current CPU and ME could not be disabled immediately, the press and the haters would be hard on them. So, let’s hope it will not prove too hard…
Anyway, with a later generation a quad-core seems more feasible, as the power consumption should go down.
Just so you know: The Librem 15 v1 was quad-core and had an Ethernet connector.
As you can see here in the Spring Product Design Update1, beeing up-to-date is definitely more important to Purism than to the die-hard Libreboot guys who use 10 year old Thinkpads. I assume they will upgrade to a newer Intel microarchitecutre, but only after making sure everything runs smoothly and the ME can be disabled on it. Understandably, they also want to move closer to the goal of being blob-free.
As described here, it is not the same on every Intel CPU. I think I even read a statement that they need/want to test it on newer CPUs, but I couldn’t find it.Hm. I guess it’s kind of a dilemma. If they stick to the current architecture, sales will probably stall. If they move to a current CPU and ME could not be disabled immediately, the press and the haters would be hard on them. So, let’s hope it will not prove too hard…
Anyway, with a later generation a quad-core seems more feasible, as the power consumption should go down.
I actually made that point ages ago, told Kakaroto to focus on getting a completed Purism product before moving on to new architectures - mainly because Intel simply moves faster than Purism can work, if you’re constantly in pursuit of the latest processor line then you’ll never reach a completed Purism product. You’ll be stuck on the “Freeing the ME” step forever because it starts over every time you change CPU.
But now I find myself rather torn. I want a Purism machine but don’t want to be shelling thousands for less-than-ideal hardware either. I suppose I had hoped that maybe they’ve found a “master key” method that’ll make the process much faster on all Intel CPUs by now, but probably not. I’ve read his blog articles about every processor being like trying to learn an entirely different language and it sounds like a real pain.
So I’m torn, I want performance hardware but I want them to reach their Purism Purist Standard as well. Right now it seems like those two goals are at odds with each other.
I was hoping maybe they could switch to a quad-core and leave it there for a while. While they clearly need to choose a CPU to stick with for a while in order to reach their goals, I’d like for that CPU to be a high-performing one by modern standards.
But I’ve also considered that perhaps I need to slow down on Purism and get a performance PC first. I want a computer that can run games and do rendering jobs I need done (videos, 3D, etc), and those are things that require a high-end everything (Mobo, CPU, GPU, Memory, Storage). Seems like maybe I should get a big powerhouse PC first and then buy a Purism device to be my laptop after that. Make Purism something to put on the backburner and on my watch-list as something extra to buy when I can afford it.
I just get the feeling that with my hobbies and interests I may be a bit disappointed if I got a Linux laptop as my main computer - it wouldn’t be able to do everything I need done, clearly. Two of the big reasons I want to change machine right now is my current machine falling behind on games and taking forever to render videos and 3D modeling. While Purism is certainly interesting to my tinfoil hat and something I’d love to have as a secure laptop, I suppose I should get my priorities straight and buy a powerhouse system first.
Actully I think it doesn’t look too dim. Intel switched the extra core from ARC to x86 and I guess they’ll not do that too often… Also, researchers have made so much progress during the last weeks, like identifiying the kill bit and finding a debug interface, that one can hope it is only a matter of weeks to adapt to a new architecture - until Intel takes counter meassures (or are forced by three-letter organizations to do so ).
But yes, a real workhorse will probably not be around the corner here.
I would like a Librem 17 Laptop with additional Graphics power, since i use it mostly as Desktop replacement (which a lot of people do, 90% if the time laptop sits on work desk 10% of time you want to travel with it or go to a coffee shop);
I would pay $500 for additional size.