Fair enough, and thank you.
For the sake of clarity, those were my words, not Kyle’s. (In case anybody else focuses on that phrase later.)
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Forgot to mention: VoLTE is still a work-in-progress with the BM818 modem, so especially in the U.S., the L5 might have connection problems until that gets figured out. Something (important) to be aware of.
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I’m not an expert on cellular technology. It was my understanding that the Librem 5 was able to make and receive calls on a T-Mobile network (whether that be T-Mobile directly or a MVNO piggy-backing on T-Mobile’s network). Maybe this isn’t the thread to ask this on, but is the issue with VoLTE only a problem with Verizon (and MVNO on Verizon’s network)?
Sorry, I think I’m derailing my own thread. My apologies. Please ignore this last question.
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No, it is, or soon will be, an issue on all U.S. networks and the MVNOs that run on them.
T-mobile has delayed turning off their 3G network completely until later next year, but has probably already started re-purposing their 3G spectrum in select locales. That will affect connectivity for users in those areas, if their phones can’t do Voice over LTE.
AT&T has said they’ll be shutting down their 3G network in February, but I don’t know if that means a hard switch-off, or the beginning of their own re-purposing schedule.
All the networks already are refusing activation for phones that are not certified for VoLTE services on their networks (i.e. certified by OEM/Carrier testing and certification). T-mobile is typically more BYOP- (bring your own phone) friendly than AT&T, which has already published a short list of “approved” devices, mainly the ones that they themselves have sold, I think. Verizon also has a whitelist, from what I understand, but I’ve read a couple of comments on the internet that some users were able to get certain other unofficially approved phones provisioned.
Discussion on VoLTE: VoLTE support progress
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Actually, no. By your own logic your definition of “in stock” is incompatible with “90 days lead time”. So clearly Purism is using a different (and potentially confusing) definition of “in stock”.
I believe MMS is close. I think the adventurous can already do it but it involves grabbing third-party sources, building it yourself, integrating it onto the phone, … Not for the average customer.
This doesn’t make any sense to me. As I understood him, @SteveC was saying that because it doesn’t (or at least shouldn’t) take 90 days to pick something off of the shelf, then (in his mind) Purism saying it is “in stock” is a lie. Personally, I’m trying to give Purism the benefit of the doubt and hope that it truly is on the shelf and they have such a backlog of shipments that it’s taking them forever to get to picking my L5 USA off the shelf and ship it to me, but even as I type that I realize how ridiculous it sounds.
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Nor to me. Personally I don’t think it matters what “in stock” means. What matters is “when will I get my phone?” and yes I think everyone would agree that Purism has not been good at forecasting that.
There are at least two areas of complication however.
- If there is a configuration and/or QA process after picking and before shipment and there is a fair number of orders floating around (including backlog), that could create delay even for an in-stock item.
- Even with no delay before shipment, with a sudden influx of orders an item that is in-stock could end up with a lead time. It would then depend on stock allocation policies and order ordering
PS I don’t really see how anyone else can actually answer the question of “Did I make a mistake?”
All of the things that you mention in your original post are valid considerations but different people will give those considerations different weights. For me, price is a consideration and the price is too high.
check and check
Less relevant to me but I think we can all see difficulties with the current globalised manufacturing model and yet it is a complex scenario.
Arguable and in any case of variable relevance. Might be better off in Round Table.
For the record, I ordered the Librem 5 vanilla edition (as an original crowdfunder) and I have already received it and I don’t think it was a mistake for me to back this project. For sure, it has not gone as far or as fast as I had hoped - and there have been problems along the way.
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I’m something of a “fanboy”. I have owned three Librem laptops and I think companies like Purism benefit humanity.
That said… I won’t order a Librem phone anytime soon. There is no confusion about the “in stock” meaning. Kyle clarified it recently. It means that some phones are on the shelves but they are likely to be used to fill previous orders. Hence, your order is likely to be filled with product that is not currently on the shelves. That means, you aren’t just relying on Purism to complete your order. You are also relying on the supply chain which is not reliable.
So I think Kyle is right that “guarantee” is not the best word to use. But I do think Purism is being honest in their cautious optimism about a 90 day lead time. They may very well be right… and that would be great.
But do I think current orders will be fulfilled by then? Probably not. My guess is more like 6 months. Why? Because the world is a mess right now and I don’t think it’s going to fix itself in a month or two and because everything this past couple of years seems to turn out a bit worse than initially expected.
Also… full disclosure… I’m also not interested in a Librem phone because - while I do think the Librem 14 running Qubes is one of the most secure options out there - I don’t think the Librem 5 is the most secure phone out there. But if I did think it was the right choice for me, I would order one as soon as possible to get my name in the queue because the longer I waited, the longer it would be before I got one.
Hope that helps. Good luck!
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… and the more it would cost you, potentially.
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One thing going for the OP is that there were vastly fewer Librem 5 USA orders compared to the regular Librem 5, allegedly. That means the OP’s shipment could occur fairly soon.
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Should somebody tell him that the rest of the world would consider that “backordered”
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We all want Purism to flourish as a company, or at least I assume that was everyone’s initial attitude. What’s not to like about a privacy-ensuring phone in an era where all phones and many computers are spying on us? Who wouldn’t want to support a startup developing a quality product which promises to promote privacy and liberty? Who wouldn’t want to support them when they fell on hard times? No one wants to beat on a man who’s down.
Unfortunately, however, Purism goes out of their way to lie and mislead and antagonize their customers and supporters. So far out of their way that it’s difficult or impossible to maintain any sympathy for them. If they were transparent about what was going on and that they had problems, everyone would understand and support them. Instead, they tell lies, promise unrealistic deadlines, change contract terms and try to apply them retrospectively, pretending they were never any different (when web archives clearly evidence otherwise), drag their feet unreasonably on refunds, and act aggressively towards those they have, well, cheated. I suspect there is a bit of a Theranos thing going on where their CEO wants to maintain the image of a successful entrepreneur when reality isn’t quite like that, and is diverging ever more widely from that alternative reality as it did for Elizabeth Holmes. Does it make me a Puri.sm hater to say this? I’m not one. I’m just laying out what I see as the facts. Would I have bought Purism’s product and waited patiently for it - until such time as they really started taking the piss, e.g. by trying to retrospectively change their contract terms - if I was? Do I need conflict? Like you, I was buying a product, not supporting a charity or participating in a crowd-funding campaign, and now Purism is pretending otherwise. Does it make one a Purism hater if I’m annoyed by such behaviour?
You do realize that Purism phones - even L5USA - contain Chinese-made components, quite possibly made under those exact “slave labour” conditions, don’t you?
I don’t think there is any “if” about it. There is a snowball’s chance in hell of Purism shipping your Librem 5 USA by early February.
What do I propose you do? What do you want to achieve?
Do you just want the phone? That’s a wish you may never get granted. You can wait and do nothing. You’ll wait a long time. Odds are you will never receive anything. Or you will receive something that will never work properly. There is maybe a 10% chance at this stage you’ll eventually receive a phone that will eventually (later still) be usable as a phone. Even if this were to happen, there is IMO a better than even chance that that phone will not remain supported.
Do you want your money back? As you have (unlike me) ordered your phone after Purism changed their terms and conditions which now say you can’t get a refund until your product is ready to ship, you will face even more of an uphill struggle if you seek a refund. You could argue that their contract term is unreasonable, and therefore, as the contract was drafted by Purism and you are the weaker party, that it should be set aside. But it may not be a straightforward argument and you may not prevail. You could perhaps try to get your money back by selling your place in the queue, as some others seem to have done.
Is there any other worthwhile goal you could try to pursue? I can’t think of one, but maybe you can elaborate more on what your objective is?
You could certainly cause Purism a lot of trouble, because their conduct is IMO actionable and potentially of interest to the authorities, but whether that’s something that will do anything for you is another question. It could protect others gullible parties from getting burned, I suppose?
I think you have answered your own question.
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From https://puri.sm/policies/ :
- If, for any reason, you want to cancel your order before it was shipped, we will issue a full refund.
- If you want to draw funds from any product that you: back, pre-order, early purchase, pre-purchase: when your pre-order is reached in the shipping queue you can decide whether to have it shipped or opt for some other option.
Being as I did not “ back, pre-order, early purchase, pre-purchase,” I would understand that clause 1 applies to me and I could have legal grounds for demanding a refund if the phone is not shipped within 90 days.
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I second that.
@dr_t Let’s not confuse refund terms for the regular L5’s and L5 USA’s. The latter have long been “in stock” and are supposed to be refunded within a few business days upon request (unless shipped).
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@johnk, @Greendrake These are good points, and I agree with most of what you say. I’d however also like to point out that when I placed my order for L5 (not L5USA) in 2019, the applicable refund policy was this https://web.archive.org/web/20191128161958/https://puri.sm/policies/ . There was no
If you want to draw funds from any product that you: back, pre-order, early purchase, pre-purchase: when your pre-order is reached in the shipping queue you can decide whether to have it shipped or opt for some other option.
wording in it. Furthermore, as https://puri.sm/faq/what-does-pre-order-mean/ now reads (this page is new and did not exist when I placed my order):
Refund policy for pre-ordered devices is different.
I.e. the refund policy for pre-orders is that you have to wait until your order is ready to ship to get a refund, but for an order, you are entitled to an immediate refund at any time. And the refund policy that applied to L5 orders to those of us who placed our orders back in 2019 was the same as the refund policy is for L5USA orders placed today.
So you might think that Purism would have simply honoured my request for an immediate refund. Nevertheless, Mladen Pejakovic wrote to me saying the company will not issue me a refund until my phone is ready to ship. Do you think you will be any better treated? I doubt it. Your legal position, I believe, is the same as mine. To get a refund will require being a bit more robust with Purism, I believe. I’ve commenced my first steps in that direction.
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I didn’t “preorder” the L5 USA, and neither did some other users I’ve seen here who made a regular purchase of a product listed as being “in stock” yet haven’t received their product even after the lead time listed. I’ve not asked for a refund yet, as I am (for the time being) still hoping against hope that Purism will fulfill what they advertise (unlikely as that may seem).
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An excellent question!
I wouldn’t place myself in the “very well off” category, but my reason for ordering (not pre-ordering) was to get the phone within what seemed to be a reasonably certain timeframe — “6 to 8 weeks” or “90 days” — depending on where/when you look or who you ask — comparing to the ever-vague estimations for the regular L5. So I upgraded my regular L5 pre-order (from December 2018, $599) to the order of L5 USA in July 2021 (paid the difference). Additionally, it seemed to be safer in terms of possible refunds: since it was now an order, I thought it should be easy to get a refund quickly if it is not shipped, not like I would have to wait for the original $599 pre-order refund for hell knows how long.
Well, it is now obvious that I made a mistake. They now agree to refund “probably some time in Q1 2022” or within “several weeks” (again, depending on who you ask) which I am of course not buying and talking certain steps to collect the debt ASAP.
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