It sounds plausible, but also quite concerning. I paid Purism $2,000 for the L5 USA. If they can’t purchase the parts and manufacture it with my $2,000, then they are using my money to pay for someone else’s phone(s). Whatever you call it, that’s sheisty.
@johnk, One thing that we can verify is that Purism is having trouble getting the i.MX 8M Quad processor and the RAM, which both had a 26 week lead time back in April at all the parts suppliers that I checked. Purism can use different RAM, but it can’t use a different SoC, without essentially starting all over. I recently checked again, and the i.MX 8M Quad now has a 52 week lead time. I have problems with some of the ways that Purism has marketed the L5 and especially its retroactive changing of the refund policy, but the shortage of the i.MX 8M Quad is real, and Purism just had bad luck to select a processor which is heavily used by the automotive sector, which makes it doubly hard to get parts right now.
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I don’t doubt there is difficulty in getting chips. But when a company claims it doesn’t know when it can issue a refund, there’s a problem.
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That is probably a big factor and I assume that is a big part of why the L5 is scarce, but I assume the SOC is soldered. If so, I don’t see how an L5 USA can be “in stock” if it is missing its SOC.
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In case anybody else is interested in the email communication between me and Purism, this is the email I just sent them. I will post their reply when they respond:
Hello Purism support,
I would like to cancel my order and get an immediate refund. Please note that the claim that the refund “process takes more time to complete” is completely unacceptable. Purism took and processed my payment immediately when I placed the order. The idea that a cancelled order would take weeks to refund is ridiculous. If you refuse to cancel my order and process my refund immediately, I will submit a consumer complaint againt Purism on the website for the Attorney General for the State of California: https://oag.ca.gov/contact/consumer-complaint-against-business-or-company. I know others have been successful going this route, so I know this is a means through which Purism will refund cancelled orders in a short amount of time.
If I do not see my order cancelled and my money refunded to my credit card by Dec. 20, 2021, I will submit that consumer complaint with California’s Attorney General. I would imagine that Purism does not want another strike against them with the State of California’s Department of Justice, so I am confident you will see how reasonable my request is and issue the refund immediately.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Sincerely,
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And the reply from Purism support:
Hello,
Your request is filed and forwarded to processing, but like I said we will need some time until we are able to process it. Thanks for understanding.
Kind regards,
In response to this, I replied with the following:
Hello name of Purism support person,
I appreciate what you have done. I would encourage you to contact your supervisor so that he/she is aware that I will be submitting a consumer complaint againt Purism on the website for the Attorney General for the State of California if the refund is not processed by December 20, 2021. Thank you very much.
Sincerely,
I got an almost immediate reply from the Purism support representative with the following:
Hello,
Thanks for the heads up, I will forward to our management.
Let me know if I can do anything else for you.
Kind regards,
I really don’t enjoy having to be this assertive, but I am concerned I will get yanked around for who knows how long if I am not. I do not desire to contact the AG of California, and I’m not looking to wage war with Purism. But if they are going to be sheisty with my finances, I have no other choice.
EDIT: just to be clear so fanboys/fangirls don’t think I’m being unreasonable: I want to reiterate that I did not pre-order the L5 USA. I did a standard purchase of a device that Purism listed as being “in stock.” When I discovered it was not in fact “in stock” for me, I decided to cancel my order. I am being completely reasonable in my expectation that I will be promptly refunded for my cancelled regular order (i.e. not a pre-order) that hasn’t gotten close to shipping.
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Since you ordered within 60 days, your credit card should still have you covered for a chargeback. So if you don’t get your refund by the 20th, in addition to the AG, you can also initiate a chargeback. Companies hate chargebacks even more than they hate AG sniffing so dropping that you’ll doing a chargeback might get action faster.
Unfortunately, most customers are in a position where they have waited too long to do a chargeback unless their bank is someone like American Express, who will go to war to get money back. But you’re still in that window, so use it if you can.
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I agree. And, if allowed, as this topic is so inspirational (for a second), like to add that I need to agree on this one too: “Unlike in the world of sheeple, who are so obsessed with buying this and owning that, money doesn’t matter in my happy place.” −− Evan Waite, The New Yorker, 20 Feb. 2020
What is your order status now? Is it “Awaiting Shippment” or has changed?
My order in my account with Purism still says “Awaiting Shipment.” Granted, it’s only been a day, but I can’t believe it’s that difficult to switch someone’s order status.
I’m yet another one whose order status has not changed after receiving confirmation from support that they registered my refund request.
That said, I don’t see any reason to worry about order status as displayed on the site. The email is the primary source of truth and will prevail should evidence of refund request be needed. At the end of the day, if they actually ship the item on top of issuing refund I won’t have any objections 
.
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Perhaps they just mean they got all the parts in stock, but it may take up to 3 months to assemble and fulfill all the orders up to and including @johnk’s? This is of course the optimistic answer, but having followed this whole mess ever since my preorder back in 2018, I have my doubts.
That’s an interesting definition of “in stock”. One would think that when a product on the warehouse shelf is already spoken for, it no longer counts as being in stock. If they’re just sitting there and there are no orders to be fulfilled before @johnk puts in his order, the phone is effectively in stock and can be shipped immediately without a 3 month lead time.
So no, I think Purism’s definition of “in stock” is: find some definition of “in stock” that our current status would satisfy, so that we can convince more people to order or upgrade to the L5USA, even if we know we’re unlikely to meet the delivery dates we publish.
You know, like when “shipping” meant “we have received our first batch of internal test devices, and since some of our engineers also purchased one, and they’ll be receiving some of those internal test phones, we can now claim that we’re shipping to customers”. When in fact, nobody outside the company was getting one at that point.
Very creative with words, Purism… Also with history: we changed these terms today, and they have been in effect for years".
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My most recent communication to Purism support (per the suggestion from @lolno):
Hello name of Purism support person,
Thank you for sending the previous communication to your management. If you could also let your management know that I have confirmed that Chase bank (the bank with which I have my Visa credit card that I used to make the purchase) allows for disputes for chargebacks within 60 days of the original charged amount. Being as I am still within the 60 day window, if Purism does not voluntarily refund my money for my cancelled order by December 20, I will also be starting a dispute for that charge with Chase Bank.
Thank you again for forwarding this to Purism’s management.
Sincerely,
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Like I mentioned before, I have been ordering Purism products for years. I remember when the possibility of these phones were first discussed. I also remember when I decided not to invest money in the project because it seemed more like a kickstart fundraiser than a typical product purchase. There would be no refunds until actual product was shipping… if and when it shipped. I would never see my money or a phone if the project failed. So I passed. But I remember the sentiment of people who were willing to invest in the project… they were just happy that a company was willing to try and succeed where everyone else had failed. It was something of a gamble… but they were betting on something special.
And now… everyone talks about it like they were ordering a new Kindle on Amazon and Jeff Bezos stole their money and kicked their dog. I guess that’s how it feels to some people.
All I know is I wish everyone the best in finding resolution and I wish Purism the best in sorting out logistics so they can start meeting customer demand.
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I also wish Purism the best in sorting out logistics. My preference would be that Purism is and operates as a legitimate company that fulfills orders for items they list as being “in stock.” When I determined that Purism’s definition of “in stock” does not mean it is actually in stock for me, I decided to cancel my order (again, not a pre-order). My hope is that Purism will willingly refund my money and I will not have to do the dispute/chargeback process with my credit card. If Purism figures out how to do business, maybe in another year or two I can purchase the L5 USA from them.
You pretty much know where the apples and where oranges are. Why conflate them?
This thread is NOT about anything that was (directly) kickstarted, crowdfunded, invested in etc. It is about an order for a fucking in-stock item, albeit not immediately shippable but within 90 days.
So what is the point are you trying to make? That we should give Purism leeway in bullshitting us because they allegedly serve a good social purpose? Well, whether they actually do is now a big question — precisely because of the bullshit they dare so blatantly. Note that the “Now Shipping! Place your order now, get in approximately 90 days!” bullshit is still there despite all the woes, complaints and refund requests.
And that is not to say that even if they still actually serve the purported social purpose, it gives them mandate to bullshit people.
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My opinion is that the courts need to get involved here. Purism could be forced in to a chapter 11 bankruptcy. At that point, Todd would no longer be the king of Purism, with freedom to say and do with Purism, whatever he pleases. For example, Todd would have to submit a plan to the bankruptcy court that shows how Purism intends to work their way out of this mess. Ultimately, if the court doesn’t think the best plan that Todd presents is feasible and legal, then Purism would be forced in to a chapter 7 bankruptcy (liquidation of all company assets - including all other Librem products). The bankruptcy court could put a temporary stop to Purism’s accepting anymore Librem 5 orders going forward, or could force Purism to make critical disclosures publicly, before Purism would be able to accept new Librem 5 orders from people who would become fully informed individuals. A failure to meet commitments to the court could trigger events that lead to things that Todd may not like, like tossing him out and/or the selling of assets to creditors.
In such a case, myself and potentially everyone who has ordered and pre-paid for a Librem 5 (either version), would most likely lose their money. But integrity is worth more than money and under these existing conditions, I would rather lose my money and put a stop to the fraud (call it bad business decions or bad luck or whatever you want to call it), that Purism is currently engaged in. On the other hand, if Todd really does have a feasible and legal way to honor Purism’s commitments in a reasonable time frame and without deceiving people, then the court could help to oversee that process. My guess is that it might take a class-action suit to properly incentivise a lawfirm who could act on our behalf to file that suit and to start subpoenaing records.
But if Purism were sold in-tact, then it might become properly managed under new management. Commitments could be honored even if the news is bad and not everyone gets what they expected previously. At this point, I would rather see Samsung or LG purchase and take the management of Purism’s operations. At least then, I might get something for my money. The way things are now, if Purism takes more people’s money and eventually goes out of business anyway, then Todd’s dream would die in either event. Why die a slow and painful death? Do the right thing here Todd. Time is up.
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You are assuming (possibly incorrectly) that Purism is in financial trouble.
I tend to agree with that assumption given their reluctance to give out refunds, but I do want to identify assumptions.
The problem with having Samsung/LG purchase a (hypothetical) bankrupted Purism is that they may be unwilling to sell a privacy oriented phone at all–I can well imagine Samsung shares with Google the profit from all info harvested by Android; they won’t want to lose that revenue. They could, in other words, simply discontinue the Librem5 and Librem5 USA. Would they be willing to issue refunds or would they insist on shipping you a “substitute” Spyware Phone instead (justifying it as having more “features” or being more up-to-date)?
You are assuming (possibly incorrectly) that Purism genuinely makes privacy oriented tech — as opposed to only claiming it does and making backdoor-infested tech instead.
I tend to disagree with that assumption given their dishonesty in the reluctance to take the L5 USA off their store as it has not in fact been available as advertised.
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I agree that we’re operating on some assumptions. Whether or not Purism is in financial trouble right now is becoming less of an issue over time.
Todd Weaver is clearly morally bankrupt. So many ethical breeches have been perpetrated by Purism that, how much cash the company has on-hand right now becomes less relevant every day. Purism’s business model in use now is unworthy of respect. The employees at Purism need to promptly issue refunds to those who were promised that option, before the refund policy changed and later when they ask for refunds. At first, it appeared that pooled money from pre-orders had been spent in commitments to manufacturing to build our phones. Fair enough, for a short period of time (but in retrospect that wasn’t true) on the refund issue. But Purism had no new product release production ramp long after some shipping started and well before the pandemic started. No one who wants to stay in business or who wants to be respected by their customers operates that way. Kick their customers in the teeth and say “get the f… out”. That’s basically what Purism is doing and has done to their customers who are ignored and lied to every day. I did not agree to pay to belong to an open-ended commitment to unlimited funding of new free opensource software that I will probably never benefit from before the company eventually goes bankrupt. I didn’t agree to let Purism use my money to fund their mission any longer than it takes them to assemble and ship my phone.
I want what I paid for two years ago, not excuses that blame the pandemic as cover for manufacturing incompetence that took place well before the pandemic started. But worse than that, I really don’t like being lied to. I would rather deal with Samsung or LG. Their social purpose is more worthy than that on display by Todd right now.
Todd needs to: 1.) Admit publicly that the retro-active refund policy was wrong, and immediately process refunds to everyone who asks for a refund if they were promised refund options prior to their purchase. 2.) Stop taking Librem 5 USA orders that ship ahead of the regular Librem 5 queue. 3.) Pay cash in advance, to lock-in large SoC (and other component) purches with earlier guaranteed ship dates. 4.) Go out of business if all three conditions described above can not be achieved. A worthy social purpose can not be achieved using immoral means.
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