I'm Out (for now)

I get the frustration with the Librem 5, but I can never go back to a proprietary OS like iOS or sailfish.

Every day, I use my Librem 5 and am glad for the freedom I have. For example, an app I use hasn’t had a release in a while. I just downloaded the source code and compiled the app directly on the Librem 5, and I had a completely up-to-date app. That kind of experience makes me happy to be a Librem 5 owner.

Everyone is clamoring over whether Purism will keep developing Librem 5 software. Why? Purism has done a lot, and the Librem 5 is in a basically usable state. People have been using GNU/Linux laptops for decades without relying on the manufacturer to support the OS. PureOS is Free Software. The work that Purism has already done is not going anywhere. Ideally, Purism will pick up development again. If not, volunteers will likely continue to improve the Librem 5 software.

Hopefully, PureOS continues to improve, but if not, it’s already better than proprietary OS’s.

I’m a current happy Librem 5 user, and I will continue to prefer the Librem 5 over proprietary OS-driven phones, even if PureOS never, ever gets another update.

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Yes, HOPEFULLY will improve :frowning:

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I think maybe you missed what I was trying to say.

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No, I get it. I just like your feedback. This isn’t a dump on Purism post. I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with your feelings about the Librem 5. I just appreciate the thoughts.

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And we should not forget the latest information given regarding the status of librem 5 software development; Purism are focusing on HW right now, which is what actually makes them money, and will be at full development speed soon. I will assume this is true until otherwise is proven, and I do not see any need for more information from Purism at this moment. There was a new SW update for the librem 5 today, so something is happening at least.

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FWIW the i.MX 8M chip actually has 5 cores. There are the regular 4 cores that are used to run the operating system and applications etc. - and the extra core is only used to do the DDR training during boot, thereby providing some isolation for that function. Reportedly.

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There are far more than 5 processors. There are multiple cores in the GPU. There are processors for USB microcontrollers (of which there are two), processors for the DRAM controllers, … and so on. There are processors/cores scattered all over the place. The USB microcontrollers have proprietary firmware and the USB3 controller interacts directly with memory. Ditto for the DRAM controllers.

The so-called “extra core” that you are referring to is an M4 core and does more than just implement the DDR training with its blob. It doesn’t really isolate anything and it does more than just the DDR training – it implements interrupt handling, transitions between sleep/energy management modes, etc. It can interact with virtually all the controllers. The only real goal for using the M4 core rather than the CPU is that Purism thought they might, through a technicality, meet the RYF requirements. Who is to say whether it does, but what can be said is that it doesn’t actually accomplish any isolation goals that the were meant to be preserved by that RYF exception.

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That may or may not happen in foreseeable future. They don’t really have a track record of being punctual. I ordered my phone while it was still crowdfunded, so I should know.

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I think that it would be reasonable to expect Purism to upstream all of the necessary patches, so the phone can work properly with upstream kernel, NetworkManager, and whatever else.

I think nobody is arguing that.

It is in a basic usable state, but is still unreliable. I know since I daliy driven it for about a year. What frustrates me is that it could be better than this.

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Not to add to the comparison with SFOS but I found modem connection on a variety of devices I was using in the past 5YRs or so ago to be pretty unreliable, and openvpn connections over them to not work well reliably. Ofono is bad in my opinion. On the L5 with PureOS it is very solid :slight_smile:

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I am in the middle of trying out every provider that might work with either Sailfish OS or the Librem 5. My use case is slightly odd, though because I live in the country and in a cellular dead zone at my house. That is my problem and not necessary a Linux problem (although the cellular coverage is much better for my family on non-linux devices). Generally, my cell coverage with Sailfish and Librem 5 on Mint Mobile has been generally the same.

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To purism’s defense I have to say that they have either directly upstreamed what was acceptable to upstream, have helped get their packages into Debian proper, and made it very easy for other OSes to use their packages over eg a mainline kernel.

It seems that PureOS dev and maintenance has slowed down to a trickle which is disappointing, agreed. But waiting for crimson does not make sense, IMO. Crimson is Debian bookworm and Mobian provides Debian Trixie already. pmOS has the latest and greatest too, and remains very committed to support the L5. Phosh upstream development seems to continue at a rapid pace, despite (apparently?) not being paid for by Purism any longer. So, the software side of things is not as bleak as we make it out to be.

The GNOME ecosystem seems interested in mobile and got funding, so we are not that much dependent in Purism any longer (but for driver and kernel development, I guess).

Will it ever beat the duopoly featurewise? Nahh, there is just too much money in there.

PureOS made more sense when lots of downstream patches were needed to make things work, but the number of packages that need adapting to mobile has decreased a lot in the last 3 years or so.

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I had the feeling that there are some kernel patches left out. If I’m not mistaken, hotspot code for NetworkManager hasn’t been upstreamed. User space software is less of an issue here.

Agreed.

I have a feeling that most of us here don’t really care about feature parity with them.

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Nope, we, the mobian project, take their patches and apply them directly, there is no secret sauce missing.

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But in Mobian the stability in receiving calls in suspend mode is more worse than in PureOS

Also the quality of sound is much more worse than in PureOS

in Mobian about 30-40% of all incoming calls do not be received (signalled) and for some of them I want to pick up are crashing the modem.

Can somebody on Mobian look what a “special handling” PureOS has done for this issue?

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Ah, but the patches aren’t merged into mainline kernel?

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No, it is very difficult and tedious to get things accepted in the kernel. And while Purism has been active there, and did get things upstrea, not everything was upstreamable or acceptable for upstream.

Of course, they could - and should - continue these efforts.

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Kudos to you and the rest of Mobian team for working on L5 support.

I am aware that getting things accepted in the kernel is a big effort. But until all of the code is upstreamed, we have a problem, IMO. Maintaining out of the tree patches is additional burden to you and others working on mobile distros.

I think that Purism’s priority should be to upstream the patches, and users should switch to Mobian or pmOS. To me that looks like the solution that would bring the most benefit to the users.

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Referencing this thread (I'm Out (for now) - #2 by zash1958), but not wanting to hijack that thread, here’s why I’m sadly going to have to stop using my Librem 5 for now . . .

Firstly, at least from my experience, Purism have either no “Customer Service”, or no “Technical Support” department . . . Every time I contacted Purism prior to, and after purchasing my Librem 5, the staff members who replied were listed as developers on the website at the time.

I completely understand the project was and is a work in progress, and happily bought my L5 knowing that, along with the wait time for arrival.

Prior to purchasing in late 2020, since I’m in Australia some of the questions I asked via email were:

  • If the phone didn’t work here in Australia when it arrives would I be able to get a refund. I was told yes, I would be able to as per the refund policy on the site (at that time).

  • I noticed it said there were only US and UK, European plugs that came with the universal charger. So I asked if an Australian plug would likely be included by the time my phone at that time was expected to be shipped. Once again I was told yes.

Skipping ahead to mid last year when I received a notification email saying my L5 was to be shipped to me within ‘three weeks’, I replied to the email asking about the plug as it was still saying only US and EU UK plugs were available, and was told that no, the L5 is only shipped with the US UK and EU are shipped, and I was given a link to buy a AU plug online that would fit the charger.

I read the policy (which had changed since I bought the L5) and it clearly stated (in 4c at the time, now 5c that the warranty is void if a third party component causes damage. So, a Purism staff member knowingly recommended I needed to use a third party component to get my L5 working. So, reading that, I politely request a refund, and then like many others here have said, there was silence. I emailed every email address listed on the site at the time, still nothing.

One of the reasons listed a while ago that no refunds could be given once a L5 was ordered was because that money was used for parts for that phone. Makes sense . . . until an email announcing the Librem 5 USA, and I could upgrade to a L5 USA it would be arrive quicker (no discount offered other than a credit for what I had paid for my L5). Ahh, question. no refund on ther L5 due to monies paid on that used to pay for parts, but then why not the same for the L5 USA?

Then, changing tact, I started a new email chain to which a different staff member replied and after a bit of back and forth my L5 was to be shipped within a week with a tracking number. Two weeks later, no tracking number. Another email, and I was told that Purism no longer had stock of a SD card I ordered when I ordered in 2020 and my order was put on hold until it came in, but there was no time frame as to when that would be. No communication advising me of that delay until I followed up.

So, I asked if the SD card be swapped out for a second spare (I had already order a spare) battery. It was agreed that could be done.

First day turning my L5 on, and updating there were issues, which were thankfully resolved with help from members of this forum, and not from the support staff at Purism.

Reading through some of the issues people have faced with their L5 it seems the easy, and most common solution is to 'Reflash". Now, I’ve run Linux exclusively on my laptops since 2015, and reinstalling is usually the last resort when problems arise. In my time running Linux (three distros) on my laptops, I’ve only needed to reinstall once when issues arise.

When a L5 arrives it (should have) the most recent set of updates (as per date it was shipped), and user just needs to update. There should be no reason to have to reflash upon the first update.

Reading recent threads here, it appears that Purism are now focused on selling hardware. Great, but who is developing the software to go with that hardware because it’s no use having hardware with older unmaintained software to run said hardware. Oh wait, that’s right we should now pay more money to help fund software development, which should come from income from hardware, or it should be stated on the website that the software is Free (as in freedom), but paid, which is okay if stated on the site, which it doesn’t. In fact, it says, updates for life.

Imagine a person right now reading Purism’s page about the L5, and ‘thinking how great, that sounds perfect for my needs’ and goes and orders based on what is said (and not said) on the website, only to find out on arrival of L5 there are issues with the device, which needs to be reflashed, or even worse, the company is now focussed on hardware and selling shares rather than software development. I’m sure they would want a refund, only to be ghosted by the company.

Moving back to my reasoning for not using my L5 for now moving forward -

  1. Answering calls when the phone is locked is hit and miss for me ( I don’t use the suspend feature).

  2. Whenever I leave my home and therefor wi-fi I have to choose whether I want to receive MMS/SMS or be able to access the internet through my service provider as I can’t do both at the same time. (a basic feature of any smart phone). - I literally have to change the settings each time.

  3. The lack (at least for the foreseeable future) of PureOS updates.

  4. And, the reason I finally wrote this lengthy post - battery use or lack thereof. Today, as I do everyday, I unplugged my L5 from the charger after charging over night, and the battery was indicating 100% charge when booting at around 7am. By midday two approx 5 min calls, and four sms and three unsuccessful attempts to have the L5 camera read a QR code (it read the exact same QR code in the same wi-fi area yesterday), and the rest of the time in stand by mode by 3pm I had to plug the charger in as it was down to 7%. On days when the phone is fully in stand by mode the whole day, or I make or receive one call or a few text messages I usually recharge at around 5pm at around 12%.

Today was the final straw for me for now. What’s the point of having a freedom protecting phone/computer with phone if I don’t have the freedom to have basic features working on the device as I’ve mentioned above, with no sign of when updates/upgrades that fix these basic issues will be coming.

I read Purism’s recent blog boasting about now being in Profit. Any business can make a claim of finally being in profit if they sack a lot of staff, but is it really a profit if they now have no staff to continue to develop their own software to run on their own devices? Not really.

I love the concept of the L5, and if you read my first few posts here at the forum, I said the L5 was the best mobile phone I’ve owned. And, at the time it was. I loved it because there was reason to be excited about it and an implied enhancement coming soon.

Sadly, now, I’m going to look for other options, most likely a de-googled phone of some sort because I can’t keep using a phone that doesn’t have basic functions (I literally had a call as I’m typing that that I couldn’t answer with the screen lock).

Purism will never receive another cent from me - for the last few months I’ve been looking at a mini, but won’t be getting a Purism. I will no longer be recommending friends and family look at getting a L5 when they are looking at moving away from Android or Apple.

Okay, my rant is over.

I’d like to thank all the members of this forum who have helped me find solutions to challenges I had since July last year. You have all helped make this experience somewhat better for me, and I wish you all the best of everything when it comes to your Purism experience.

I will let you know what I come up with as a solution moving forward as I can not see myself ever going back to stock Android, and the only apples I’ve owned are the ones I eat :slight_smile:

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For me also that they after years cannot make work correctly and stable the most essential port of a PHONE

Calls and SMS

All are discussing about wonderful terminal based experiences but not about the lack of a stable working phone which can be used reliable for urgent calls in or out.
Terminal based work I can have on my Arch-computers and if I need this urgently on an Raspi.
Not stable working basic functions of a phone make them a gadget and not a useful tool

And this after really YEARS of development

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