Immunization Passports in Europe

Hmm. I’m not quite sure what you mean, but I’ll try to answer.

The issue of passports and travel is pretty cut and dried. A passport is a contract, issued by the state. The issuance is contingent, in part, upon one’s citizenship, which is yet another civil contract issued by the state.
Citizenship isn’t automatic when we’re born; our parents have to register us at the time of “live birth” with the state–much like you’d register a car. Thereof, a birth certificate is issued, much like the MCO for a newly produced car. At which point your status as a natural person is modified and you become incorporated with the state (you receive citizenship). All the parties involved, including your parents, if married (marriage license) are corporate entities, who in partnership with the state, create yet another entity, you the citizen.
To say the least, citizenship is not a right.
The implications here are stupefying. This reaches into every aspect of our lives, economy, politics and so on–and few know anything about it really … Pretty scary if you ask me.

Now think in terms of commercial travel. This is definitely not a right. You can be denied a ticket (yet another contract) for any number of reasons. Not least might be lack of a government issued ID–where perhaps an argument about discriminatory practices may have occurred long ago, similar to the one we’re having now about digital passports.
Point is, the amount of legal encumbered, we as supposed free people bare is extensive. There’s virtually nothing in society untouched. Meanwhile, our actual rights are berried so far beneath it, that we effectively don’t have any.

To put this in perspective as it concerns digital immunization passports upon our phones, we definitely do not have any rights here. To start, unless you make something with your own two hands, out of raw materials, for your own personal use, you probably don’t own it. Rather, you likely only have title to it.
Something like a smartphone would surely qualify. A) It was trafficked in commerce, produced by incorporated factories, who carry respective licenses and covenants with the state–a license is permission to do something that is otherwise illegal or a tort. B) Said product was then purchased by you, another corporate entity, with commercial instruments known as currency.
Still, to make the matter clear, the providers of these devices have you agree to innumerable terms and licenses, which effectively grant you title to your use their product. In other words, you don’t own it, it’s not yours really. Prima facia is the fact they can alter your phone or service however and whenever they like; they can exclude or cancel your account(s) in whatever way, for whatever reason they like; they can store and use your data–really it’s theirs–however they like; and they can install/update whatever software they like. Furthermore, you may not even have a ‘right to repair’ your device … and so on.

Which means if they want to force a digital passport onto your phone, and tell us all we can’t fly unless we have one, there won’t be much of a choice really. They’re legally able to do it and they’re practically able to it by nature of the technology. All because, somewhere and somehow you unwittingly, or not, agreed to it.
Air travel nor mobile service is a right.
In view of all of this, you might ask, ‘why would the airline and mobile industry willingly act as proxy-enforcers for policies of the world(s) government(s)?’ … Mighty fine question; not going to touch it though.

Concerning Purism, the question that concerns me is: what does all the mean for the Librem 5, or the like? Assuming there’s no technical hurdles, concerning the hardware or OS, to what degree could Purism be forced to comply with all this? That worries me. I don’t have a Librem 5, yet, but I want one. Furthermore, I don’t want to see what seems like a virtuous company be compromised or destroyed, because they’re attempting to prevail a ‘freedom phone.’

Interesting thoughts. I’m reminded of the old testament where the people opted for a king, to protect and provide for them, instead of God and his cruel natural laws. It would appear most of history has opted for the proverbial king as well.
I’m also reminded of the studies that conlcude most people would rather be taken care of, than have actual freedom …
One thing’s for sure though, we’re far down a particular road right now and there’s going to be some kind of reckoning.

What I meant is that one of the things I listed as a trade off we make in nearly any social contracts was putting people in jail. I do believe people have a natural right not to be in jail, but revoking it in some cases is a price we want to pay for some other societal good.

However, if something so basic as the freedom to move outside of a cell is a privilege, then freedom of movement must surely be considered privilege too, and so there can’t be any claim to it anyway.

I think it’s important to this discussion to distinguish the is from the should, that is any practical predicaments where we might not have a protected right to sneeze, versus what we believe should be protected.

Side note: I’ll not dig into the “is” of nation states as I don’t think it’s particularly relevant here, but nationality is not a right, but sometimes outright an obligation. Citizenship often cannot be revoked. Interestingly, it’s effectively the only thing that provides rights. I’ll refer to the same book and mention the stateless people who appeared in Europe in the early 20 century, and their ping pong between nation states where no one wanted them, and where no state stood behind them, so they were effectively protected neither by human nor natural rights.

In terms of what “should” to choose as a baseline, I would look not for abstract contractual relations, but rather at what tradoffs people actively have made and are making in similar areas - to stay consistent and make sure that we don’t get hung up on some irrelevant aspects.

Can we separate and limit the vaccination argument to the round table, from the digital vaccination document systems talk?

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“stateless” or “nomad” are very similar if not the same for me.

if you don’t own property, you aren’t registered with the state in any shape-or-form and when asked “what is your name ?” you answer : “Elliot” (means “Brave Traveler”) then yes, why would you need any “help” or “protection” from the state ?

look at the Roman Empire. they had citizenship for their citizens and they crumbled from within in a couple of centuries after the whole JC fiasco …

@JR-Fi

https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-vs-world-vaccination-fun-pull-2/12041?u=jt0

Good idea!

Apparently there are already trials of a covid negative test/vaccine passport in New York City.

After reading up on a few things about this, I think I can confidently say:
Don’t go along with this.
Microsoft wants to make one.
So does Google.
The central objection I have to this is giving these giants, who have displayed a lot of malicious behavior already, the control over whether your phone will allow you to pass by QR code scanner checkpoints to do ordinary things.
And they want to integrate their payment processing services into it, so we already know they’re not just trying to keep people safe. It also means that if you lose access to your accounts, for any reason, or no reason, you won’t be allowed past the checkpoints.
And they could (however loosely and optionally) integrate the contact tracing that was installed on everyone’s phones into it (it’s also a covid-negative status indicator), which can be used to justify arbitrary denial of access. Tracking what checkpoints you went past and when should be presumed to be data collected by default, which I also object to, since once upon a time you could go to a football game or art exhibit without someone a thousand miles away knowing about it.
My third objection to this is that I don’t believe that this is going to do any favors for keeping people safe, and that whatever it may do is not worth it.

I wish there was more I could suggest that you do than support legislation to ban these checkpoints/passports (like this one). The shutdown of businesses was somewhat arbitrary and I’m sure the officials who ordered continued shutdowns may consider loosening it only for non-essential businesses that install these checkpoints and may re-define essential to include fewer things as these roll out. It may not affect you, but it’s going to affect someone and you can’t totally predict what an executive official is going to do in response to a new crisis/pressure. In other words, try not to hold it against a business with checkpoints. They may just want to stay open.

But as for the passports and checkpoints? Cyberpunk Dystopia.

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There’s arguments to be made for them in the short term specifically in places where travel between nations is common but vaccination and health concerns keep things closed.

They don’t name sense to me long term unless we’re looking at a whole new system of worldwide travel and regulations, and even then I still think they only make sense for early adopters looking to spend some money (festival goers for those early opening, vacations while lockdowns are in place).

I don’t think they should be the end say either, and as you point out there’s numerous ways to screw things up privacy wise.

Longer thread so I may have missed it, but good overview from The Economist here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyWdIm57fpE

Edit: and to be clear Im not for them, but I can see the desire for them by both big business and countries when it comes to the economic side (ignoring how they can be misused, which of course could be an underlying goal)

If an immunization passport gets me traveling internationally again, I’m all for it. :slightly_smiling_face:

As there is no digital passport yet in Europe at my first of two vaccinations against covid-19 it was just put into my yellow booklet. As my second vaccination will be in May I guess there will be no digital passport yet either but we’ll see. The yellow booklet is from the WHO and is in French, English and German (you probably have one too, it’s for all kind of vaccinations from birth on) - so while I am in favor of having an open source digital passport (without surveillance capitalism google / facebook / apple) I guess I won’t have any problems entering countries with my analog physical yellow booklet. In fact until now there is no travel restriction at all within the EU apart from having to go into quarantine for X days depending from where you come from. So apart from not having to die until now there is no advantage of having this entry in my immunization passport ;-D

No offense, but this reasoning is shortsighted. Once a system like this is put into place, it will be very difficult if not impossible to get rid of and will provide a means for companies to track you with no way to avoid it.

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That’s a good observation. Is there any country that introduced mandatory ID for phone numbers and then repealed it?

Or mandatory mobile location collection? I think Germany had something going about shortening the period of storing this data but I’m not sure.

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It’s too late. Google and Apple already know who we are and what we are doing.
1984:
image

2021:

You might be right. Or it might turn out to be ( :wink: ) innocuous.

For me, as long as such a thing is not controlled or implemented by Evil Tech, I suspect it’ll probably be OK. I’d rather just have a simple stamp in my normal passport, of course.

If we’re to stop this thing, we need to resist it now. Otherwise, once it’s in place, it’ll be near impossible to remove it without some kind of a revolution.

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16 posts were split to a new topic: Another closed vaccine thread

Tl;dr.

you think refusing vaccine passports, or refusing vaccination based on misunderstanding of science is your freedom. - this is correct.

but you ignore that failing to be vaccinated against preventable diseases takes away more freedoms from others.

We take away the freedoms of criminals to make society safer.
I see no reason to not take away the freedoms of anti-vaxers to leave their house etc because that makes society safer for others.

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These two statements are in direct conflict. If doing something (or, in this case, not doing anything) will result in you being placed under house arrest, you don’t have the freedom to do it.

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Next time i have to intervene in this topic I’m closing it.

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Who are you to judge whose freedom is to be valued higher? To my mind lock s.b. up because the person doesn’t want to be vaccinated would violate the principle of proportionality - which is at least in Germany (and I would bet in many other democratic states) a law.
It states that every sanction which intervenes in the fundamental laws must have a public interest, must fit for the cause, must be essential and must be appropriate.
Is it essential? Is it appropriate? I don’t think so.

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