Hey, I discovered this “quote” thing in the reply thingie. Ha, I’m such a social noob! Anyway, we did that just today! The wife commented (the Ford lot was full whereas another lot was almost empty) that “Ford must have problems”. I thought just the opposite, that that particular Ford lot was doing something right to have vehicles on hand.
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Yes its hard to get more Ram and CPUs. But what you all miss is that the Money did not flow before. Just after a delivery.
So no, its not an financial impact for puri.sm cause we payed before and they hold the money and just spend it on working CPUs. If 30 of 100 are broken, they just payed for the seventy.
This is how it works.
So yes its good to spent or donate Money for Software development. But no i do not think they are starving right now.
I’m not going to re-write this, but when I got to the end I realized a mistake on my end was to use “promise” when more precisely my issue is with the “setting of expectations” as opposed to promising. So I do consede the word “promise” was imprecise and you are correct to call me out on that detail, though I believe the following does help clarify what I am trying to communicate overall.
Respectfully, that is an affirmative statement they are making. The “possibly into 2022 as demand continues to increase” reads to me that future orders may be delayed further since that would be increased demand, but there is no reasonable way I see where that increased demand delays existing orders.
Do I expect that if purism misses this date they will say it was an estimate and not a promise, absolutely, but I don’t agree that the language used reads in that way. An order placed in September 2020 that doesn’t ship by Q1 2021 would be covered by that ending caveat, but not orders from April 2020 and earlier.
I agree that this is an industry wide failure, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t call it out and push for better.
As far as the potential to fall back to being less transparent and less communicative, I’ve seen that brought up by Kyle several times; he has made it quite clear that communicating less would be his personal preference. I disagree however that the issue is binary, sharing the information or not. I would rather see precise language used to articulate what things are estimates and what the limitations are. Sure I can read between the lines after over 2 years of constantly following the communications, but that doesn’t mean everyone coming across this for the first time can. Clear articulation of meaning and intent has value.
And no, I don’t believe myself to be a perfect communicator, but I can still provide feedback so that we can all improve together.
Saying “Q4 2021 – Q1 2022” then linking to a page that says “after October 2021, possibly into 2022” and using that linked reference to say oh we missed the Q2 2022 expectation we set for ourselves but you shouldn’t hold us to that because we linked to something that was more vague and we’re using that more vague language as an escape hatch is disingenuous at best bordering on intentionally deceptive.
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I mentioned it because business gaming is a “thing”. Contractors get paid big bucks to run scenarios. I’m guessing even HEB didn’t design the scenario themselves, but rather paid a consultant at least the first time. (Suggestion in case you’re looking to start a biz.)
Perhaps the two Ford lots were the same dealer chain and swept half their eggs into one basket? Sometimes you can’t tell because the same owner owns two lots with different names. Or maybe getting ready to sell off one of their properties due to market conditions.
Unfortunately, the best example of precise language is what lawyers specialize in, and legalese is not what most people prefer to read. Also, it is expensive to write. People generally settle for language that is “good enough”, but “good enough” language means that there will be error from time to time, and that unfortunately makes some people upset.
Seeing “promise” in common, everyday language is a common form of unconscious bias (I liken it to cognitive lossy compression, which is essential for efficiency), and not specific to you. I do not mean to target you, but it is something that I see often, and that post was just a recent example.
As parity means shipping from stock, or something like that, and given that existing orders ship before future orders, yes, if they are anticipating parity after 2021/10, then I expect that existing orders will be sent out after 2021/10. However, that does not say that existing orders will be completed shortly after 2021/10. We can assume that, and it is probably a reasonable assumption, but they only said that existing orders, and orders placed today will probably be shipped before Q1 2022. While they mention demand as being a variable, they did not specify if all CPUs required to fulfill existing orders will be in their possession at the time that shipping resumes. And I say probably because they showed how they arrived at that date. It is based on other companies, which has been established as being unreliable.
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I guess it can benefit Purism to speak in generalities from which there is always infinite room to backpaddle from.
Conceptually, several people could approach the Securities and Exchange Commission and their respective state Attorneys General to inquire formally as to whether or not these Government agencies want to allow Purism to continue collecting money from Librem 5 pre-orders in their respective jurisdictions, until they (these government agencies), can assess whether or not Purism should be allowed to continue collecting money without first fulfilling existing paid orders at an acceptable rate as a condition of being able to continue collecting money for new pre-orders. Certain types of financial pyramids are illegal. At the same time it would be a shame if people on this forum and in the media started saying things to scare away potential new pre-orders. Of course this is all just conceptual. In October if Purism starts shipping again, maybe none of that will happen. It’s difficult to predict future attitudes of large numbers of people when those people start getting completely fed-up from an endless list of excuses over a period of years if this behavior from Purism continues, valid or not.
We all need and deserve more specific information from Purism right now. How many Librem 5 pre-orders exist in-total? How many have already shipped? How much access to funds does Purism have access to today, to ship those existing pre-orders (if the supply were to be available)? What is the plan to pay for the existing pre orders? At some point, my pre-order money may become worth less to me than the desire to force some accountability, even if it were to force Purism to bankrupt and resulted in my losing my money to protect against the future losses of others if the financial pyramid is or becomes unviable to ever catch-up with. If/When I reach that point, I’ll start making those calls to the SEC and to my state Attorney General and perhaps those in other US states. Maybe others might do the same. Purism may do better to release the information on their own sooner, as opposed to being limited by government agencies as to how they are allowed to do business and possibly reading about their financial status in the media after their hand has been forced.
Eventually debtors have their financial freedom removed from them by the courts, who start imposing controls over the company’s finances from outside of the company. Hopefully shipping in significant amounts starts before Purism reaches that point. Even pre-orders are subject to laws and reasonable contractual obligations which Purism may have already violated on a scale that might draw government attention.
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We do not know. It might get worse, it might get better. We are still living in a global pandemic, lots of things are not the way as they should be. Personally, I need my Librem laptop soon, as my old laptop starts to fail. However, I understand Purisms problem very well (my father actually worked in the strategic planning department of a local electronic company) Luckily, I can use my old PC, so I do not depend on this laptop. I just hope that they will deliver it soon, that’s all I can do. It will be delivered when it can be delivered and writing in this forum won’t make this happen faster. We only can do a very limited number of things.
However, we shall continue to ask questions, so we get transparent answers. Unfortunately, they won’t be very precise, as THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE.
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These are all business secrets of Purism. You would like to have for a reason I do not understand.
What we would have really needed is honest, frank and proactive communication in the past + performance of keeping promises. With that in mind and memory more and more people (incl. Purism advocates in this forum) are getting upset and disappointed.
You wrote “ordered”, but context implies you backed the initial crowdfunding campaign. (Unsure if this interpretation is right/wrong). What I am trying to point you at is: There are several groups of people
- those early backers (ever since uncertain if they get something for their money)
- those who pre-ordered, after project has been funded (certain about realization, but uncertain about specs)
- those who pre-ordered, after finalization of specs, first pictures available, etc. (certain about realization, certain about specs, but uncertain about time of delivery)
Therefore everybody has different baseline of initial expectations and different feelings about current status. So answering comments from an pre-order person with the view of the initial crowdfunding campaing is (despite personal differences in point of view) two different points of view per se.
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You could do that and you have your reasons. In some people’s opinion Purism did not do satisfying communication and had shipping delays, but in the end they always delivered.
Doing what you think of would not only effect you. It would not only affect all of Purism’s customers. It would affect the future of Linux devices.
It means to make a very very difficult project even harder. But this is a strategic project. What would it mean if Purism fails? It would have potentially severe consequences on the future of Linux devices. And I don’t think Purism has failed. It is a success what they delivered so far. Purism’s effort should not be underestimated. (I don’t say you did.) I think Purism deserves every help they can get on this critical mission. Even if they have deficits at some areas.
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I think the explanation is far simpler than that. When faced with shortages in the supply chain, it makes more economical sense to satisfy your “premium” customers first. You’re short on parts, so you use them for the product that nets the most profit. Especially if you have enough parts left over after shipping the current preorders to take on some more; if you can keep only one revenue chain going, go for the one that will maximise your profits. As an added bonus, it may entice potential customers to opt for the USA version in order to get it sooner. Although I doubt this will have factored significantly into the decision.
Purism may have made plenty of mistakes in the past (IMO), but in this case I can fully understand their decision. Sure, it sucks if you ordered your phone back in 2017, and someone who ordered 3 years after you gets theirs first. And it doesn’t seem fair. But if it keeps the revenue flowing and helps the company stay afloat, we’ll all be better off in the end.
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I understand your concern, although I placed my order only in 2018, i.e. I am waiting for its fulfillment not so long as you. But I understand that developing a new product from scratch is a risky business. From the beginning, I assumed that the project could fail, and I could lose my money. However, since the first customers have already received their devices, there is no reason to talk about the collapse of the Librem 5 project or the financial pyramid. Another thing - delays and uncertainty in the schedule of delivery of finished devices to customers. But in this case we can talk about the insufficient communication from Purism, but not about its absence. This circumstance can be nervous, but does not jeopardize the fulfillment of obligations to customers. In addition, force majeure, which is the KoViD-19 pandemic, should be taken into account. The Purism team has really done and is doing a great job, so I’m not inclined to complain about them. Especially since the claims will not help either Purism or its customers. One can express outrage at the inconvenience of the flight, breaking the window of the plane in the air, but this protest is unlikely to improve the situation for the plane and its passengers.
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“Better is the enemy of good enough”. - Admiral Gorshkov
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Kudos, sir! 
I still remember times were people in my country used to spend only the money they had in their pockets. Those used to be the times, when people still reveived their money as cash in envelopes, when companies used to run warehouses and storages and sold only the things they had readily available in a shelf or knew, they’ve got all necessary parts in the shelf to produce it in time.
But the world kept turning. And times changed. Just-in-time used to be one of the big buzz-words. Supply Chain Management.
As bad as all the currently running things around Corona are, there are also positive things that become non-ignorable. Everything non-sustainable slowly startet to become visible with time.
People old enough still might remember how things were run locally and not just-in-time, slower, less profitable. But it used to work.
Right now we see more and more wheels slowing down - which on one hand is bad. On the other it’s a good thing because it reminds us to re-think if everything’s right with our way of turbo-thinking and -acting.
I’m happy with my Librem 13. And i’ll be happy once i’ll receive my Librem 5. Wether it’s tomorrow or within the next year… so far it’s been an interesting time and i’m further promoting and supporting Purism, your idea, your way. Great work girls and boys!
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Deceiving people is the problem. Not supply chain issues, not the pandemics, but deceiving people, changing the rules (refunds), not certifying the devices even after 6 months since the launch.
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Can you give me a few examples of deception? Failed expectations don’t count. Deception. I’m ready.
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A very good question. It is more than tedious to see the same people flogging this claim.
If so, please do it in a new thread. It’s getting tedious to have every news discussion thread end up being an argument/accusation/conspiracy about perceived past sins.
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perhaps if evey thread turns into such a discussion in your opinion, they are not so much a matter of perception and even if they are…its a larger issue that purism have incurred over several years of, not the best choices from the top. Your request is as reasonable as concerns expressed.
And it is a little insulting that you dismiss a long history of, to but it kindly, misstakes and being over optimistic (from the top,not you,specifically or any one employee just trying to deliver these impossible promises and deadlines) and call it all perception.
Dismissing concerns does not dismiss the people who have them, if anything you give food for their thoughts and validate future posts being even more filled with concern and questions.
Please understand i am not holding you or the typical employee responsible nor directing my words at you, but rather whoever (if anyone) is steering the ship and wether that captain has been a good one or not over the years from the customers point of view.
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