I really wish you all would hit reply at the bottom of the thread instead of at the bottom of my post.
I don’t think you have to check it every week. Judging from zks1’s message above, those who paid for the phone in September 2018 might get it in March 2022. I paid for mine in 2019, so there is no point in bothering to check the delivery date any time before 2024 (I’ve demanded a refund repeatedly, never got it, and by this point, considering all the inflation that’s taken place since then, it’s doubtful it’s worth pursuing either). Look on the bright side. By the time the phones ship, the components used in them will have acquired value as rare antiques, so you can strip your phone for components and resell them on some antique market place.
I’d totally put up with a used CPU, salvaged from a car wreck, just so my phone could arrive earlier.
That doesn’t make sense. A person who ordered a year later than another person is not going to receive their phone a year later. Large chunk of all orders was made in 2017 during the crowdfunding campaign, and it took quite some time to actually develop the phone before it could start shipping at all.
I agree that it doesn’t make sense. When I ordered (and paid for) my phone, there was a 6 month lead time. This wasn’t during a development period, this was a lead time for a (supposedly) shipping product. So in a Newtonian world, that means I’d have received a delivery in early 2020, but Purism obviously lives in an alternate reality where time is dilated. I’ll believe that it’ll take less time than until 2024 (or longer) to deliver 2019 orders when I see it. I won’t hold my breath, though.
This wasn’t during a development period
That’s false - the initial shipping announcement published in September 2019 estimated that the mass production batch will not be ready before Q2 2020, at which point the shipment of backorders was supposed to start. This eventually got delayed and Evergreen shipment only started in November 2020, and even then it got paused for a few months because of component shortage (see the chart at Estimate your Librem 5 shipping ).
It’s not false, it’s the exact truth. But everyone knows that Purism has attempted to retrospectively change contractual terms at least once. Normally, I would take exception to being called a liar, but since you work for Purism and your lack of ethics is well known, ergo nobody takes Purism seriously, so I’m not going to take it too heart.
To @dr_t point, or at least how I read it, when you go to the purism website, and look at the product itself and how long it will take you to get it, there tends to be one story. If you are aware of these forums, and track the discussions, you get another story.
But, to the point that @dos made, and I think others who take the time to engage in these forums and discussions, one of the things we realize also is that what pursim is trying to accomplish is quite revolutionary. And there are still lots of bugs and kinks to be worked out in it. If you combine the info that you get from this forum, the main website, and blogs, etc. one of the things I do like is there is more of a transparency then you get from companies like Amazon, Apple, Google, etc. To me the real difference between Purism and the mega corps is that Purism doesn’t have the financial resources they do. But, they still try to be transparent.
If you look at it from a business perspective, it probably wasn’t the best idea to start advertising and selling a product that is still in early development. That is a business call, in my mind, so I agree with @dr_t from this perspective, but I would disagree with them in that you can’t judge purism for that, becasue I don’t know what is happening behind the scenes. They couldn’t have predicted the pandemic, and supply line issues, etc. And, the unfortunate reality is Purism doesn’t have the resources at their disposal that megacorps have. Megacorp that are for less transparent about what they are really doing behind the scenes.
Through these forums, I’ve come to learn about a great many other groups, teams, companies that are working towards similar goals and visions that Purism has. So, I"m really thankful for that!
At the end of the day, though, I am anxious, frustrated and pulling my hair out as to when I can get my L5 I’ve debated getting the pinephone pro. Mostly to tinker with. But, money is tight right now, and I do have working systems already (I opted for pixel 4a with grapheneOS to tide me over until the L5 arrives) so, I’m just keeping my fingers crossed.
You make some good points, but I’d like to highlight one of the points on which I don’t believe you are correct. Had Purism delivered within the lead time they committed at the time I placed my order (and indeed, some placed their orders even earlier than I did), they would not have been affected by the pandemic, because the pandemic didn’t really get going until later. So the pandemic is irrelevant. It’s like a student who is late for his exam because he has overslept and then, being late, hits rush hour traffic - and then blames the rush hour traffic (which he would have missed had he got up on time) for missing his exam.
here I am, reading the rant from OP on my L5
Heh, rant. I guess pictures do speak a thousand words, and I posted three of them.
@zks1 Isn’t that exactly what crowdfunding is?
If a backer is unwilling to accept that risk, why even be a backer?
That can’t be said often enough.
@dr_t The pandemic (and its fallout, such as the current CPU shortage) is what’s standing between us and our Librems.
I think that your alternate history scenario, a universe where Purism delivered on time before the pandemic, has comparatively little impact on reality.
I am not a “backer”. There was no crowdfunding when I placed my purchase order. The lead time promised at the time of placing my order expired before the pandemic had any impact. Your lies and smears are worse than those of the lamestream fraudcasters.
Will you please pull your ignorant head out of your bottom and check the facts before making insulting and factually incorrect posts about the company’s customers.
I paid the money. I was supposed to receive a product. Instead, I’m on the receiving end not only of nothing (except excuses) but also insults.
What is standing between me and my refund (at this point, I don’t care about the phone, which will be totally out of date by the time it ships) is Purism’s incompetence and dishonesty. The pandemic has nothing to do with it, and never had anything to do with it.
When @zks1 mentioned “early development,” my impression was they were referring to the crowdfunding phase. My reply about backers was in good faith.
I certainly didn’t mean to insult the non-backers, nor did I mean to play down their justified anger. I apologize.
With that being said: I strongly disapprove of your choice of words. Someone making a factual mistake doesn’t make them fair game for verbal abuse.
If you can’t take it, don’t dish it out. Your reply was expressly (via an at-tag) addressed to me. I made it clear in this thread I placed my order in 2019, which makes me a customer, not a crowdfunding backer. You accused me of living in an alternative history which had little impact on reality. You sound somewhat like a holier-than-thou wokeratus who knows how to lecture other people but has a fit if someone administers a bit of their own medicine back to them. Re. the choice of words, you were the first to address me, and your opening shot was an insult, so don’t lecture me about my choice of words - sort out your own words first. I don’t approve of your choice of words either, but I’m not a neurotic prima donna, so I know better than throwing a fit, I’ll just give you back what you throw at me in equal or greater measure.
I think you’re reading into things and seeing something that isn’t there. @Lliure was trying to say that the pandemic is a factor now, having missed that you ordered in 2019 and were told you’d have your phone earlier. It’s an honest mistake, as was explained. We get that you’re upset and why you’re upset, but your frustration is aimed at the wrong target.
The backer thing was in reply to @zks1, which had nothing to do with you.
Plus, I have apologized to you and other customers. I’m afraid I can’t do much more now to help you feel better.
Mind you, the single time I interacted with you was in reply to your comment:
in which I wrote:
which is criticizing your argument (not you as a person).
My comment was referring to the scenario you mentioned, the one where Purism delivered on time.
What exactly is it that makes you feel that it’s about you personally?
If my words have made you feel insulted in any way, then please help me understand so I can learn and communicate better next time.
Btw, I’m taking a break from this thread now to help the discussion cool off.
After the crowdfunder has ended there was still a long period of time while the phone has been in development but you could still preorder it to reserve your place in the queue. The shipment of mass production batch haven’t started until late 2020, before that it was quite obviously still in development. Of course the initial estimates for when development will be done were aiming for much earlier, but there were several delays along the way.
Multiple of which were not communicated until after the self imposed estimated date had passed. This made it quite difficult for those placing a pre-order around that time to know just how far behind purism was at the time.
As such, stating:
Is a bit of an oversimplification of events.
@dr_t may not be communicating in what I would consider the most eloquent way, but I still think their points on this front are reasonably sound. With their student being late analogy reasonably apt (no, it is not “perfect” but no analogy is).
Not how it has been used in recent years, though there is a philosophical argument to be made there, blurring the lines between a pre-order and crowdfunding only hurts the consumer.
Aren’t refunds a separate topic to L5 orders? There are several threads on these forums with suggested paths forward for a refund that have allegedly worked for others it may be worth searching and reviewing some of the alternative methods if you are not getting, what you feel is reasonable response from Purism.