Privacy-loving Luddite needs some translation help <3

Hardware Librem 5
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Thank you for that opinion and explanation - that makes a lot of sense! I’d definitely rather spend the money with Purism. I’m just desperate to have something until then :frowning:

I’d be happy to use the PinePhone in the meantime if I could get one soon, even if there are some lingering issues with it like what @Gavaudan pointed out until Pine64 fixes them. At this point I’m not going to be receiving any messages/calls pretty soon when AT&T shuts off my SIM again (no one could tell me when this would happen, the only estimate I received was “a couple days” but its now been 10 days) so it’d still be an improvement.

Maybe I’m paranoid, but anything Android or Google related makes my hair stand on end. I might resort to one with Rob Braxman’s services, but then there goes my money for the Librem 5.

I have tried to buy a single month of Red Pocket service + sim, for several days now, however, their website keeps telling me that my card authentication failed for two different cards (both of which are fully functional everywhere else), so I contacted their customer support yesterday and have not gotten a reply. I swear it is like something is TRYING to stop me…the amount of dead ends I’ve run into full force is well over the standard deviation from the mean.

When I talked to them earlier in the week they were “pretty confident” that my slider phone would activate ok on their network but I am not so sure. Thus, I’ve also been looking for 4g non-smartphone options. It appears that by the time 4g came out, the only phones being produced (for 4g) were smartphones and flip phones made for the elderly.

@BrentMpls Thanks for posting that link. I would also love to hear what others think about /e/ solutions. It looks great, however, I’m concerned about the specs where it says it is 4G LTE but then further down in the specs it says "VoLTE: Not yet supported by /e/OS on this phone". From what others have said in this thread, I think that means that when 3G is not available, you wont be able to make phone calls at all. :frowning: It also doesn’t support VoWifi, so does that mean even Skype/etc calls are out? (double check the above if you plan to get one, @eNZymOrTHe ) …of course if they update the OS it in time, great. But I’m hesitant to be dependent on it.

This is what I’m seeing as my options until Librem 5 is ship-able (in no particular order):

  1. Red Pocket + Slider: Figure out why Red Pocket wont take my money. Get the GSMA SIM, and make sure my slider phone can be activated on their network using a new phone number so I dont cancel my line with AT&T for no reason. If it works, then buy a new Red Pocket SIM to port my current number to.

  2. 4G Flip Phone + bluetooth keyboard: hope the phone can accept input from a bluetooth keyboard so I dont pull my hair out text messaging. Stay on AT&T because at this point, fuck everything, I just want this to be over. Cry if bluetooth keyboard doesn’t work.

  3. Pine64 becomes ship-able before one of the other solutions works and I muddle through trying to install some kind of OS that I can operate.

  4. Buy a phone from Rob Braxman, and then probably not get the Librem 5 unless my money tree starts growing actual money. Does the OS he installs work with VoLTE?

  5. … Maybe that /e/ Solutions Galaxy s9 and pray they get VoLTE up and running before 3g connection gets too spotty in my area?

I finally got a response from their customer service- everything you said is correct. Apparently they DO offer Silent Phone, an app that costs like ~$127/year that encrypts (or otherwise secures? noob here) text messages between two app users, and secures your outgoing phone calls thru the app to any one even if theyre not using the app. That coverage is too limited for me, but figured I’d share that since some of ya’ll might want that as an addition to whatever you’ve already got going.

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@BrentMpls This may be an option if money isn’t an issue:


~$1500 is too much for me, though
It says it works on most network bands, however, I didn’t check them myself (or for VoLTE) after I saw the price.
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Currently I’m doing this while waiting on the librem 5.

  1. Bought a oneplus phone and put lineageOS on it. (I think this is what Rob Braxman does). I’m 99% sure this witks with VoLTE, as it’s just android with no google.
  2. Will buy a pinephone once it’s available.

I have the oneplus phone, and I’ll note that I’m currently on a 7 day waiting period to get a code from them to unlock the bootloader (yeah, I wasn’t thrilled about this either).

I’ll be happy to share my experiences with either. Though I’m a complete newbie to smartphones so it’s not going to be advanced. I should be able to share some from lineageos next week, but a pinephone likely won’t come until late April.

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Please share, I think it helps us. We will probably face similar issues with the L5.

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Have you called your card issuer(s) to make sure they aren’t blocking the transaction because they think it’s unauthorized?

Have you tried a different browser? Perhaps restart your browser in “safe mode” and see if it works. (Look under the browser’s Help menu…and DON’T choose “Refresh,” choose “Restart.”) I know that sometimes my personalized browser privacy measures prevent things from working, especially if they require a stupid captcha.

If you’re using a VPN service, you might try turning if off, then see if the transaction completes.

Skype and VoWiFi are different things. Skype is a stand-alone application that provides calls over the data connection (all interior to the app). VoWiFi is a feature of the phone+carrier to route your phone’s cellular calls over the data connection.

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@Rae. Yeah, nuts. I also spotted that after I had made that post. Absurd. Honestly, nobody should be selling any smartphone into the U.S. market at this point that is not VoLTE supported in the OS, at least without publicly declaring a definitive commitment to resolve the issue with a timeline that concludes before February 2022. (Hear that, Purism?). So, that is a deal-killer for me on that particular interim option for now.

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Here is the /e/ bug report about VoLTE not working on the Galaxy S9. It sounds like a partial fix will be included in the next build, but the person who suggested the change only says that the operating system now shows VoLTE option being enabled, but he didn’t say “I tested VoLTE and it works”, so I’m not sure whether his fix works.

You can buy a used OnePlus and send it to Braxman to install LineageOS, but Braxman can probably recommend a cheaper VoLTE phone than the OnePlus. (By the way, the Moto G7 Play which is listed on his site doesn’t support VoLTE.)

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@Rae, thanks for the Bittium suggestion as I had never heard of them. I saw on the Specs tab on their homepage that the Tough Mobile 2 includes VoLTE. Turns out that Bittium phones are only available for sale to individuals at https://www.kickmobiles.com/bittium

But, though available in a version "without Google Mobile Services " (Bittium) or “without Google Apps” (Kickmobiles), it appears to be a hyper-proprietary device targeted at governmental and military users and, at $1465 + tax USD, is also way beyond what I would ever want to pay for an interim device (<$500 total). Keep looking. . .

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Greenfield development doesn’t work like that, particularly when there are uncooperative players involved like US MNOs and MVNOs.

Progress is being made with VoLTE. It even works already in Germany (two different carriers). Read the posts from a few days ago here: VoLTE support progress

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@Rae, I’m really taking a hard look at @Gavaudan’s interim solution of a Google Pixel 4a with CalyxOS installed.

@Gavaudan, can you confirm if your Pixel 4a using CalyxOS is supporitng VoLTE on the device and able to send and receive voice calls over 4G?

Calyx Institute, which I had not heard of, is an NYC non-profit that appears to share many values with Purism.
https://calyxinstitute.org/

Installing CalyxOS on a Google or Xiaomi phone from the Calyx supported device list creates a de-Googled phone by replacing the original Android OS with an Android Open Source Project (AOSP) OS that does not include the Google Mobile Services (GMS) package. On the whole, their Calyx OS package seems to have a lot of ease (according to @Gavaudan) and a certain elegance according to the description on their site.
https://calyxos.org/

Thing is, we just need to know whether it supports VoLTE on their supported devices, which I have asked them to confirm in an e-mail.

As far as I can tell, loading Calyx OS onto a supported device is analagous to what Rob Braxman is doing by installing Lineage OS (an AOSP) on a OnePhone or a Moto, what /e/ Solutions is doing by installing /e/ OS (an AOSP) on a Samsung, and what Bittium is doing by installing a version of Android without Google Mobile Services (GMS) package installed - which is the definition of an AOSP de-Googled phone, although they specifically avoid using such language and instead use “Android based” and “hardened Android” around their site. Maybe someone else can explain that? (BTW, on the highest-security variant of the Tough Mobile, available only to organizations, they include two OSs, one a “hardened Android” and the other something called Bittium Secure OS.

So, @Rae, if you’d be comfortable using a Bittium Tough Mobile running Android-No GMS (if it was affordable), or an /e/ Solutions refurbished Samsung running /e/ OS (if it supported VoLTE), or a Rob Braxman de-Googled OnePlus or Moto running Lineage OS (if they are models that support VoLTE), then I don’t think there’s any reason to not be comfortable using a Google Pixel running Calyx OS (if it supports VoLTE). For an interim device to tide us over until we privacy-loving luddites actually acquire an L5 and are holding one that’s VoLTE-enabled, this appears to be possible for ~$250-$400 depending on the model of Pixel, though none of them check your box for a physical QWERTY keyboard.

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@irveinewade Yeah, I saw those posts on the other thread. But, I’m really just looking for some kind of confident public assurance from Purism, posted on their website, along the lines of: “Purism is committed to supporting VoLTE on the Librem 5 by the time the last of the 3 major U.S. mobile network operators (AT&T) ends service on their network for all non-VoLTE phones as of February 2022.”

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If it has to be public then best to take your question to the other topic then.

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It does use VoLTE (this information is brought up by dialing ##4636##. It doesn’t show here, but there are asterisks before the pound signs on the left and after the pound signs on the right, “star pound star pound 4636 pound star pound star”. Not sure how to format it to get them to show).

IMG_20210322_072937
IMG_20210322_0729371062×673 93.5 KB

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Thanks, @amarok I went ahead and tried your suggestions and a few other ideas based on what you said/internet search (disable pop up blockers), unfortunately none of them worked. My bank said they never received a transaction (attempt or otherwise) from Red Pocket Mobile, and they haven’t blocked any transactions. The first explanation I got from Red Pocket customer service was something about a PIN being sent to my cell phone and because I didnt enter the PIN it didnt work? This didn’t make sense to me because the check out page says nothing about texting a pin number and I didnt have anywhere to enter it, and I received no texts from them. Hopefully their next response will be more helpful.

Does this mean that phones that dont have VoLTE coverage could still make phone calls through 4G data on skype or similar? I’ve never done it myself, but I believe skype can call cell phones, with fees. I don’t think you can call emergency services 911 with it, though.

@BrentMpls Your explanations are really helpful, thank you!! Just out of curiosity, is there a reason why you’re leaning towards putting a new OS on a Google Pixel instead of another phone? I’m super wary of anything “Google” but then again, Google owns Android so even if I did the same thing on a Galaxy, it doesn’t really make a difference, does it?

If I go the route of installing a new OS on a phone, are there certain traditional phones that are better to start with, privacy-wise? Would it be better (or even possible) to use a phone that is not Google/Android to steer clear of their greedy data-mining fingers completely?

Does anyone know if there’s an advantage to using Calyx OS vs Lineage OS, privacy-wise, or are they about the same? Sounds like Calyx is worth supporting.

@Gavaudan thanks for sharing that nifty trick and screenshot! Were you also able to test out making/receiving phone calls using 4G?

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Yes.

See: https://www.skype.com/en/legal/emergency-calling/

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The phone doesn’t explicitly say whether its using volte or not during a call, so I did some searching and found that dialer code. The phone says it does and the 4a is new enough, so there isn’t any reason to believe otherwise.

This wasn’t addressed to me, so just my two cents: Samsung is just as bad as google. I’ve seen blocklists for ad- and telemetry-blocking that are samsung-specific, which means they’re at least bad enough to warrant the effort to make a samsung-specific blocklist.

One last thing: this PIN is something the carrier gives you to carrier-unlock your phone, and at some point you’ll have to enter it in yourself. Its been a while since I’ve done it and I seem to recall the details varying a bit from carrier to carrier. I’m not clear on if you’re currently using red pocket or if you’re switching to them, but calling whomever you use and asking for your unlock pin should get you what you need.

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@Rae
I had the same issue with RedPocket. Spent a few weeks talking to RP support and to my CC company (Discover). The CC company was not seeing any attempts to charge me at all. Its an issue with the 3D Secure system. In the end the final solution was to get a mastercard which worked right away.

I’m still using an old Note 4 with ASOP held together with tape. I’ve been swapping to a Pinephone to test the CDMA support which sometimes works. I expect it will be a while till I get my Librem 5 so I ordered a used Pixel that I will degoogle myself. This will have to suffice until the L5 is delivered and functional enough.

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@Rae, I’m converging on getting a Google Pixel running Calyx OS as an interim device to the L5 for three reasons: 1) Ease-of-installation endorsement and VoLTE-functional confirmation by @Gavaudan, 2) Mission, organization, and projects of Calyx Institute and contents of the Calyx OS package, and 3) I consider the Google hardware of the Pixel to be a minor privacy concern compared to major privacy benefits of replacing Android OS on it with the Calyx OS package. To reduce e-waste, avoid directly supporting Google, and spend as little as possible on an interim device, I’m looking at a refurbished Pixel 3a, a 2019 release available for $100-$200 on Back Market.

@Rae, I may out-Luddite you here. I’m currently using a prepaid Tracphone LG 440 flip phone from 2013 as my only mobile phone by choice for mainly voice and only minor text. Tracphone uses the tower networks of all 4 (now 3) major mobile network operators, so I’m probably still good for voice and text on the AT&T 3G network only until next February when they will be the last MNO to reject all non-VoLTE devices.

I only started researching smartphones in earnest last August and come from philosophies of both anti-corporate dominance and privacy, so quickly settled on Purism and the L5 with great enthusiasm. Last fall, I understood from Purism’s messaging that I could order an L5 in October and have it by March, but have held off as I became aware, first, of the ongoing near-beta condition of the Evergreen batch, then the ongoing Purism manufacturing and shipping delays as a result of the pandemic and likely other factors, and finally the universal MNO sunsetting of 2G and 3G networks and their rolling exclusion of non-VoLTE devices from their 4G networks that actually started last summer, for which the L5 is not currently ready with their sole baseband modem option.

So, as a non-technical, non-GNU/Linux-literate, and non-tinkerer user who wants to actually buy and receive, as advertised, an essentially fully-functional smartphone out of the box (for me = voice + text + data + search + camera + MMS + VoLTE), and wanting as much yet this spring, I’m now looking at an interim phone that checks those boxes and at least leans toward privacy and away from the MS-Apple-Google industrial complex, until the L5 is actually ready for other than free/libre hardcores, tech-heads, GNU/Linux nerds, and tinkerers, is VoLTE-functional, and can be ordered from stock.

By all accounts I’ve seen, the Pinephone is a device even more ill-suited to general users and most appropriate for free/libre hardcores, tech-heads, GNU/Linux nerds, and tinkerers than the L5 and I would not seriously consider it for meeting my own needs and interests for an interim device at this time.

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*#*#4636#*#*

Like any decent Linux system :-), you can escape the star with a backslash.

If anyone complains that it isn’t obvious that that’s what you need to do, I’m going to counter-complain that it is even less obvious that that is the magic keypad sequence to determine whether you are using VoLTE. :wink:

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Just realizing I never checked a premise that a lot of my effort has been based on…
Is a 4G LTE flip phone safer (privacy wise) than a smart phone?
Is a 4G LTE flip phone safer (privacy wise) than a smart phone that’s been “de-googled” and/or with new OS installed??

I realized that these 4G flip phones I’m looking at are STILL running Android! Oreo 8.1


For some reason I thought they’d have a different OS. So now I’m wondering if its any different than getting a smartphone running an android OS. I mean, I’m not going to be downloading apps on the flip phone. But I probably wont download much/anything on a smartphone either, at least not without vetting it.