Shady Company to do business with

Librem Phones (Librem 5)
#9

That is not correct. The return policy is effectively part of the sales agreement and can not be modified after Purism has been paid. It’s a contract and corporate status has nothing to do with this. Also, the FTC Mail Order Rule applies uniformly to every US corporation. Please don’t spread misinformation.

The only “rule change” for an SPC is in regard to shareholder expectations. In the US, companies can be sued if they act in a way that is contrary to shareholder profits. If you are an SPC, the corporation can sacrifice shareholder profits if they are doing so in order to follow the social purpose stated in their articles of incorporation ( https://puri.sm/about/social-purpose/ ). Of course it also requires Purism to file a Social Purpose Report annually which documents the choices they made in following their social purpose —> and Purism hasn’t ever filed one, so they are not really protected by their SPC status at this point.

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#10

Thank you for the clarification.

#12

So, you said that you never saw a topic removed here. What about the topic about Lawsuit against Purism which you just today replied to? Where is that topic gone? Do you see now what company is this Purism? They present themselves as freedom fighters, but ban people who speak open, remove the topics which they dont like. So where is that topic? And please dont tell me that there were some violation on that topic. If so, you would just mention about it, but there were none.

#13

Purism said many times here, that they will not provide a place to discuss a lawsuit against them, on their own money.

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#14

Thats obvious. Then lets them know not to present themselves as freedom fighters with their Librem products.

#15

They are fighting for the freedom of software on the phones. It’s proven by their actual contribution to the free software, which everyone can independently verify. Yes, their hardware is not as available as they promised. It doesn’t make them non-freedom-fighters. Also, helping you to destroy the company would not promote freedom.

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Lawsuit against Purism topic was removed by Purism
#16

Just to be clear, are you saying that it should be tolerated when a company breaks the law, as long as they do some good as well? Because not giving refunds within seven working days when a customer canceled the order is against the law.

#17

Purism :wink:

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#18

If you look at my profile, you can obviously see that I’m a fan of Purism. I’m still waiting for my Librem 5. I do not think that delaying refunds is fine, but I can also understand that paying all refunds at once could destroy the company, which is the only company actively developing GNU/Linux on the phones. Everyone can decide by themselves what is more important here. An argument for Purism is that – if they succeed – millions of people or more can benefit from the mobile Linux, whereas if all refunds are paid, hunderds (?) of people would benefit…

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#19

Yes, true. They deleted the other topic.
I have not noticed such cases in the past and I had the impression that they don’t do it because there are topics with a lot of criticism.
It is so sad that we even have to discuss this topic of refunds. I guess that we are talking about a 6 or 7 digit number (worst case several thousand refund requests times on average something likely under 1000 EUR per case) which is for so many companies pocket change so that it is very sad if Purism don’t have enough liquidity to just pay to avoid the stress, bad karma and bad publicity.
I wish that someone could come up with sufficient funding to save the day and bring the vision of Linux smartphone to a success.
Musk might spend more than 40 000 000 000 USD for the time wasting Twitter and we are talking here about a 6 to 7 digit number. Such a shame.

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#20

What’s there to understand about that? That’s literately the point where a company needs to file for bankruptcy. Or do you also understand when you pay a craftsman to fix your house, but they won’t show up for months, because they don’t have the money anymore to pay for the materials they need for your house — the money you actually already gave them?

An argument for Purism is that – if they succeed – millions of people or more can benefit from the mobile Linux, whereas if all refunds are paid, hunderds (?) of people would benefit…

By this logic every company should stay in business for ever, no matter how crappy their business practices are.

Also in the case of Purism this logic makes even less sense than for other companies, since Purism’s products are or should be open anyway, so any successor with a better business plan could continue right where Purism had to stop.

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#21

I waited four years. It is a small company. Stop it. I have my phone and I love it and I waited.

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#22

I wouldn’t apply this logic to every company – only to a company which already showed significant progress and advanced the field.

If I trust this craftsman that they do their best and struggle to meet the ends, and if I want to support them doing the good thing, I will wait longer for my goods/services. Also, I should have some hope that they will get out of the debt at some point.

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#23

I find it strange that people miss the point of developing the Librem 5. They just think it’s like any other product and not the point of the spear trying to free you from the digital technocracy. That being said why wouldn’t you give them every opportunity to succeed even if it meant great inconvenience to you? I’ve waited almost 4 years for my phone and I’m hopefully about to get it. Is that tremendously disappointing? Yes, but I can also see the big picture here. I invested in this project knowing full well that I may not even receive a product, but I supported the idea even if they failed, they will have in the very least moved the cause along. Don’t you guys get it?

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#24

I think the main problem is in the expectations management.
Maybe one could have gathered the money from donations in order to avoid this situation.
Or one could have cooled down expectations like PinePhone. They make it very clear that their phone is not for everyone.

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#25

Not everyone bought a Librem 5. There are also reports of people who are waiting for refunds for other products of them, products which all supposedly can be shipped within a few days.

That being said why wouldn’t you give them every opportunity to succeed even if it meant great inconvenience to you?

You really can’t imagine scenarios where people, especially in these days, would want to cancel an order for an expensive device? Also, they don’t need a reason. There’s a law and above that Purism even has their own policies, which they themselves put up and chose to violate.

I invested in this project knowing full well that I may not even receive a product

Like I said, not everyone gambled on the Librem 5 phone, there are also people waiting for refunds on the supposedly ready Librem 5 USA, Librem 14, …

#26

If I trust this craftsman that they do their best and struggle to meet the ends, and if I want to support them doing the good thing, I will wait longer for my goods/services. Also, I should have some hope that they will get out of the debt at some point.

Would you also support this craftsman if they accepted multiple new contracts and money from other clients, which they explicitly know they can’t fulfill at the moment? Would you also support this craftsman, if they didn’t provide any financial reports, which they are required to by law?

#27

They provided estimations for the delivery time, according to their best knowledge at the time. First couple of delay were purely their fault (but one can never know how hard it is until you actually try). Later, Covid made it impossible to make reliable estimates. I do not see any sign of intentional evil here, do you?

Did you read this topic before commenting? The lack of reports only removes some protections for Purism. It is not necessary for the main goal. (But I hope they do it at some point.)

#28

They provided estimations for the delivery time, according to their best knowledge at the time. First couple of delay were purely their fault (but one can never know how hard it is until you actually try). Later, Covid made it impossible to make reliable estimates. I do not see any sign of intentional evil here, do you?

You’re ignoring the cases where customers ordered devices like the Librem 5 USA or Librem 14, which have been listed as “In stock” with “10 days shipping time” for months now, and are still waiting for refunds. To this day Purism is selling those devices with the following policy:

If, for any reason, you want to cancel your order before it was shipped, we will issue a full refund.

Which according to the FTC must be provided within seven working days.

The fact that they know that can’t or won’t comply with that policy, but still sell devices under that policy, is in my book a clear sign of intentional evil.

Did you read this topic before commenting? The lack of reports only removes some protections for Purism. It is not necessary for the main goal. (But I hope they do it at some point.)

It’s one of the requirements of a social purpose company. To this day Purism is advertising itself as a social purpose company, so obviously they’re obligated to provide those annual reports.

#29

I do not know how widespread it is, but it looks like a more rare case. Of course I do not think that it’s fine. But my above argument still applies, since it’s the same company.

I agree that it looks quite bad. However, since I think that such cases are rare (do you have any evidence otherwise?), they could results from the unintentional management mistakes. I hope it gets solved ASAP.

They are probably allowed to advertise themselves as SPC, although they may not have the actual protection. Yes, I find it sad, too. Do you suggest that I choose a ThinkPad or MacBook? Purism never had any security or privacy incidents.