I think this thread has gotten pretty far off topic. We’re supposed to be discussing why we’re choosing the Librem 5, not arguing semantics over common parlance for specific operating systems.
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Mobile phones and especially smartphones have never appealed to me but the Librem5 was going to be my first smartphone. However, against my better judgement, I got a Moto G6 a few months ago. I hate it. Android was bad enough to start off with and then it upgraded (quote-unquote) itself to v9 and got even worse. I hate all these apps that refuse basic functionality unless I agree (again, quote-unquote) to hand over access to various personal data - contacts, pictures, audio recording, camera for the purpose of facial recognition… Using Android feels like being an unwelcome, untrusted guest in someone else’s house.
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Oh no. 
@Voluntary, you saved your virginity this long. Bride already at the horizon. Fell for a G6. Sad.
(sorry, couldn’t help it… 
. I fell too, but 7 years ago already)
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Those apps are a real problem also in Librem5. We cannot install Android apps which are spying on us all the time but where to find apps which behave in a decent way ? I have a Moto 6 too (which is inferior to my old Moto 3) and I try to install only apps from F-droid. However, certain basic apps cannot be removed without loosing almost everything, eg. the telephone app … But I hope that Librem5 will make it possible to use only free (open) apps so that I finally can get rid of Snoople completely.
I have one big problem, however, and it is paying from my phone. Now I have installed the Swedish banking ID in my Android phone and I can pay using the SWISH app which is very common in Sweden and probably soon will replace cash completely. But will the banks create a SWISH app for Librem5. I am afraid not. Thus I must carry with me an Android phone also just to be able to pay … I do not trust apps like Apple Pay - not to mention Google Pay. Perhaps there will be a solution in the future but now it seems to be a real problem.
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If it’s even possible to run Android apps on the L5 they need to be sand-boxed and kept away from the real user data they typically help themselves to (and throw a fit if they’re told No). Perhaps the key app for the L5 will be a virtual Android environment. At least at first…
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This would be the only use case where I would feel safe running most Android software on my device, for sure. Sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with the G6- I know the whole not wanting to get involved with privacy-violating mobile devices feeling all too well, having avoided owning a smartphone until only a couple years ago (when work demanded I get one).
While under way, for me is to be lucky to have advantage of using the “tool” like GNOME 3.32 (steadily growing up) to be able to read (e.g. OpenStreetMap), write and speak the way that I want to, knowing it is to everyone (that I communicate to) understandable and correct! Ah modesty … for me it is to support and to hold my thumbs up for this project that is offered by Mr. Todd Weaver so that I do not need to be ashamed of; you see I don’t give a penny out if I find something limited to what I get (even when unnecessary), as supposedly needed, and often released under-evolved (like Gigaset ME Pro with Qualcomm Snapdragon 810 MSM8994 for 549 EUR in 2016) but, on the other side, ethics and the whole tactical (and broader) development as it is upfront presented by Purism: where it is taken care of being treated with respect, where is to push for one’s dignity and as it is transparently communicated or run (today and tomorrow) by the Purism people I do admire.
If above not enough, here is at least to have partial hope, as well, that the Article 12, from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, finds his way home:
“No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.”
That’s sad if cash ever has to disappear.
Can’t you use the good old blue card? (also called credit card but I don’t like that name since you don’t necessarily do a credit to buy your things) I know it’s not the best solution but I find it much better than using your phone for that.
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Just writing on a Librem 13. Using it since half a year. Beside some very small softwarish problems and my lack in experience with Linux it just looks, works and handles like a charme. Surfing. eMails. IntelliJ. Freecad & Simplify3D. Everything is working well. AND everything is in MY hands. ONLY MY HANDS.
If the Librem 5 is close to be as good as the Librem 13 i’m happy that i pre-spent my money for it.
Librem 13 so far (and Librem 5 hopefully later, too):
- worthy looking, handling everyday-use laptop doing just what i want and need
- customized fully to my needs
- no data sending home, no av-stuff, no nothing
- my camera and mic’s physically switched off (several friends got ads by google about things never searched but only talked about…)
- my disk is encrypted if i don’t allow anybody to see it’s content
- opening the lid, the system asleep is usable before the lid’s open
- if i don’t update this system it WILL still run lightning-fast in 1 or 2 years where my google-based devices became slow and unusable in the beginning and weren’t maintained later while my windows based systems forced me into days of migration-works, re-installations and since w10 re-installation after update and 3K+ messages home a day while macs worked beautifully before their quality went downhills but always encaved me in one companies ties - I’M BLOODY HAPPY TO HAVE DONE THE STEP TOWARDS LINUX AND BOUGHT A LIBREM 13
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Oh, I forgot to mention that credit cards also are on the killing list. Possibly there will be an intermediate stage when the cards are just files in the phones. But that is almost the same as the phone pay systems.
As I have understood the phone will in fact be (almost) the only way of paying except for your desktop computer (which you do not want to carry around). Point is that it will be important for Librem5 to handle payments in the future. One estimate is that cash will disappear in Sweden around year 2030 - I do not know about other countries. Security problems could of course make the need for cash to last longer. And concerning security Librem5 will be at the forefront.
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If I remember right I saw on the news that here in France we’re using cash for something near 50% of purchases so we won’t see it disappear for quite some time. (anyway we would probably have a riot if banks ever tried that)
Someone will probably try to make an app for that purpose I guess, but we’re still not 100% sure if there will be NFC or not.
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NFC is not needed in SWISH. You just dial the phone number of the receiver. Both your own number and the receivers number must be connected securely to a bank account. It is a very fast system - you can pay in seconds. Needless to say the SWISH app must be very secure and isolated from all other apps. And here Librem5 which is designed from the very begin to be a secure system really has an advantage.
that’s just it. the ones doing the spying work don’t believe that it’s arbitrary. they are arguing that it’s for our protection that they embed backdoors and other ways of “interfering” in proprietary hardware and software - less so in open-source because it can be independently audited for such things and that represents a good enough deterent.
classic copyright and patent issuing are their paradise because they can hide their spy code without any worries that it can be seen and studied.
copyleft or the GPL ( general public license) is the only one that has the legal power to defend against such “interference”. except the baseband which is non-freedom respecting everything else inside the librem5 carries the GPL blessing. so yeah it’s not 100% yet but we’re getting there.
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Bryan Lunduke told I should
Basically:
- No Android, means no google
- Linux
- Hardware killswitches
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It sounds like they are basically mandating that people carry around either an android or apple phone (along with a functioning internet connection?) to buy anything - is that even legal?
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As a matter of fact only 10 % do not have a smart phone in Sweden. The big systems are Apple and Android (and a few Windows) which together amount for about 85 % of the population. But there is a ongoing discussion if the banks should be forced to accept cash - at least for a period of time. Now several banks have made it impossible to handle cash except for a few places. So it is fairly vital that Librem5 can use the Android Bank ID app (well isolated). All the Nordic countries are moving in the same direction. We have wireless stations covering about 99 % of the population with fairly good Internet connections through 4G (or 3G). 5G is coming but it will be a disaster because of the short range it has. People do not realize that yet. The operators are renaming 4G into 5G and sell “5G connections” which have the same capacity as 4G - of course.
In our sparsely populated countries there is however a need for good antennas in the mobile phone. My old Moto 3 is fairly good but my new Moto 6 is rather useless in many places. I certainly hope that Librem5 will have a good antenna. If not I cannot pay for a ticket in a bus in a remote village.
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I’m pretty sure that it’s against EU’s antitrust laws, or at least forcing you to buy something when it’s not to prevent a life threatening situation should be illegal.
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This is such a dystopian present, I don’t even think the Librem 5 makes it much better 
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this is what is meant by digging your grave with your own hands. first we put our government infrastructure into the hands of non-free software/hardware then we fold our rights to banks and yeld under the pressure of copyright + patents and generally sleep well enough when we hear that <<It was the ethical ideals of free software, not “better software,” which persuaded the presidents of Ecuador and Brazil to move government agencies to free software. They are not geeks, but they understand freedom. >> https://www.fsf.org/faif/
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It’s Free as in freedom. Yup, that was the big selling point for me (although I’m sure I’m going to love convergence, the privacy aspect, etc. etc. too)
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