I find what Steam is doing great. I know it doesn’t tickle everyone’s fancy because it’s not FOSS, but I find it to be that happy medium ruff is talking about.
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Wearing a tin foil hat? What does that mean? That is being too vague for me. Also I do not understand how knowing that Windows is a spying jail OS makes someone ignorant.
Extremism is subjective. It all depends on what standards you have. E.g. according to your standards Richard Stallman may be an extremist in avoiding nonlibre software but that makes you an extremist in accepting it according to his standards. It’s easy to call the opposite side extremist but they’re just extremists compared to your standards like you are an extremist compared to their standards.
Besides, extremism is not always that bad. For example, many people call my way of eating extreme (though I think they’re the extreme ones and I’m just normal, again it’s all relative) but I actually think being extremely healthy is a good thing. Extremism is not always bad IMO. I would not drop a good thing just because according to someone’s standards it’s extreme. Not even if that thing was extremely good.
Anyway no one here can beat MS when it comes to treading on your freedom. So it’s ironic that you would tell the people here to stop treading on your freedom to embrace MS.
But I would not force you to stop even if I could.
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I find it ironic that in the day an age we live in you can find no other corporation that treads on your privacy and freedoms more than MS. How about Google, Facebook, heck even Apple (seeing as how you only rent devices from them).
I don’t quite understand why me telling people to not tread on my freedom perplexes you.
The material point and the underscoring of freedom.
What made you think that this is true? It is not, anyway.
It does not perplex me. The irony is you were asking people who can not even tread your freedom to not tread your freedom to embrace those people who will tread your freedom. So it sounded like you were asking for more freedom but in reality you were asking for less. That’s the irony.
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Fortunately, you seem to be the only one misunderstanding or seeing things the way you do.
Shall we go our seperate ways on the matter? I am.
Oh hey, if you talk to jaylittle, please ask him about his rumoured upcoming interview with Chris Fisher?
Sorry to interject, but I don’t think he’s alone. It sounds like you’re saying something controversial: “you’re free to choose to give away some of your freedoms”.
Too many are freely choosing to give up some of their freedom in exchange for convenience (or for access to one of the shrinking number of AAA games only on Windows). The others who don’t make that choice seem to end up suffering as a consequence, but they’re usually told to shut up when they point this out. I can hardly think of a better example than the smartphone field, where certain “open” technologies cannot exist without a minimum sized market to justify their development.
I don’t fault people for using Windows when they have to (I’ve done it), but if you’re not making some effort to move away and support user-respecting alternatives, you deserve some criticism for that. The fact that you’re here indicates that you probably understand much of this, in the case of phones at least, but you might consider whether you’re being logically consistent with regard to complacency using Windows. (Assuming I haven’t misunderstood your defense of MS here.)
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I’m not interested in debating here whether I support MS or not. I’m simply saying should I decide to use MS products, I don’t need to hear the guilt trip form the crowd here.
I’m a big boy, and am able to make my own informed decisions.
I own a Librem 13, and have pre-ordered a L5. I’ve also bought several other libre like devices.
I see the virtue in the products and support much of what they represent. However, I feel there is a happy medium between them and the rest of the technological world. I am of the simple opinion that we needn’t through out the baby with the bath water. (don’t read into that as me saying invasions of privacy and security are ok.)
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I’m sure there’s a logical fallacy in here. I also used to have this same “moderation is best” viewpoint many years ago. First of all who defines the extremes? But also we can easily make this “moderate is best” rule look absurd. Is a moderate amount of theft best? A moderate amount of killing? Or a moderate amount of freedom? Unfortunately it’s not always as simple as “finding the middle ground”.
I’m pretty sure the maximum (“extreme”) amount of freedom is ideal for any rational person (granting that this freedom ends when it harms other people, I’m not endorsing about chaos and lawlessness, obviously).
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I agree you’re free to make that choice. I disagree that you should be shielded from even reading what this crowd thinks about the consequences of that choice. Freedom has its price… I’d say this kind of critique is part of it.
If it triggers so much cognitive dissonance that you won’t even discuss the topic further, I respectfully suggest that you someday re-evaluate your opinion of being satisfied with this “happy medium”. Understand I’m not even saying “abandon Windows today”… the first step is at least accepting that we can do better.
Hopefully I don’t come across too harsh, that isn’t the intent.
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Rad. Glad we had this talk.
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You said that, you explain the causes and consequences 
I didn’t say a word about moderation.
my only AAA games i enjoyed back in the day are D2 and Chronicles of Riddick (‘escape from Butcher’s bay’ and ‘Assault on dark Athena’)
nowadays Blizzard is on the cash bandwagon and imo doesn’t produce quality material not even Diablo (only cinematics movies perhaps 
)
and about the COR - there is some irony in here …
Escape from Butcher’s Bay - yes doing that while playing on a M$ system 
Assault on Dark Athena - it really is a “dark Athena” unfortunately when you think what the city used to represent back in antiquity …
except those games i would say that some Halo games were worth it for a mild bonkers action and some sweet visuals but anything else is just meat for the industry.
directx vs opengl - no comment i rely on the later for 3D modeling and CAD not gaming.
vulkan is here to stay.
openCL for the win if raytracing ever becomes a thing in a game coupled with HDR and 4k it would make linux a better performing system if drivers are developed properly.
well i don’t want to continue the hijack but i will say that game-consoles are not my thing and probably never will. hate the controls, hate the graphics, hate the proprietary nature just for gaming.
i didn’t mean to imply that proprietary shouldn’t exist at all, i just meant it doesn’t have any right to in the public space where freedom, transparency, openness, privacy, security are paramount.
if we want to keep the balance between government, huge-private-entitites and ourselves (the-people) we should demand that PUBLIC space use ONLY free-software on open-hardware and for the internet infrastructure the same …
I was paraphrasing this: “The right balance is in the middle.” - at least, that’s how I interpreted it.
IMO, the word “extreme” is used and thought of as a derogatory term, but the definition of the word is far too subjective to be useful. And similarly “middle” or “moderate” are too fuzzy and subjective to hold a consistent meaning for others. It’s not very useful or convincing, especially in an ethical or philosophical context.
Most of us here are probably considered by ignorant outsiders to be “extremist” in terms of privacy, support of FOSS, free speech, control of our devices, etc.; that doesn’t make these values wrong. Good moral principles are inherently correct, yes?
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This horse has been beaten to death already, but I didn’t get any swings in, so…
@2disbetter was saying that “freedom” means to be given the opportunity to make one’s choices, in this case of operating systems. If he (or me or anyone else) decides it’s acceptable to allow Microsoft to know what brand USB drive is plugged into the computer in excha he for better framerates in a videogame, then he or I or anyone should have the freedom to make that choice. Microsoft should have the freedom to put that in the software they design. The MOST DEFINITELY should disclose that, but they make what they like, and they can offer it that way if they like. There should also be alternatives, like Linux or MacOS , and people should have the freedom to choose which they want to use. Companies should have the freedom to charge for the OSes they make, and customers should have the freedom to purchase them or not, or to make their own.
Most (if not all) think it’s not right that Microsoft and Google and Facebook and whomever else are trying to extend their reach too far, and I personally agree with that. But the point is that everyone needs their freedoms, not just freedoms that he or I or anyone else thinks is sufficient. I use Windows for games. I use Linux for some, as much as I can, but still windows for the others. I have chosen to allow Microsoft to know what I’m doing with their operating system when I fire it up to play videogames, and I should not have that freedom taken from me. Whether the price is fair or not is beyond the scope of this discussion, but as far as freedom is concerned, it is my right to play games on Windows.
And now, I can let this horse rest in peace.
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freedom ? i think that it’s something else you were trying to express there … if you are only given one choice … and they only give us one choice because they know that as soon as we are given a REAL choice we will not take their bullshit anymore but we take it not because we are free but because we are not …
well there is the option to not play at all and let them starve but then the question remains … who will “starve” first ? 
Learned helplessness?
Mind you, I say that as emacs is open on another desktop… with an alexa skill lambda I’m currently working on. Draw your own conclusions, but I know what I’m doing and admit it.
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No, I meant what I said. I’m not quite sure I can see where you and I diverged, but I stand behind what I said.
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Btw it’s funny to see that people avoid Windows and just want to play with games on Linux, but in same sentence they say “Steam is great” - a plattform that supports DRM and disrespect your freedom aswell. Only GoG don’t use DRM in all there games on plattform. They also port alot of games to Linux.
Why are we talking about AAA gaming in a refund post? Let’s clear some things up if folks don’t want to scan through this entire thread.
Q: Can I ask for a refund?
A1: Yes you can but of course we’d rather you didn’t 
A2: Refunds can be provided as late as 30 days from receiving any device (see our Policies page). So there is no rush in requesting one now. We’ve already made some phones (as seen everywhere) and are making many more in our Birch batch.
Q: Who do I contact?
A: support@puri.sm
Q: What do I need to provide?
A: E-mail us from the address on the order and provide your order number.
Q: Is Windows better for AAA gaming?
A: Depends on the individual. If you need that game day 1, then the argument can easily made for yes. But if you’re okay with waiting (shout out to r/patientgamers), and with waiting comes cheaper prices as well as Proton/dxvk/Vulkan support, then Linux is a great option.
Dang it I fell into the trap too! I blame @2disbetter
But seriously folks, let’s try to stay on topic and and not fret about the Librem 5. When building something new, there are always metaphorical fires to put out through all stages of development. We learned lots of new stuff in this first batch and purposely made it smaller than originally intended (see here).
We have exciting hardware fixes lined up for Birch (not to mention the continual software advances) so keep an eye out for updates on our Librem Social page. This forum is also a good place too since turn around time between a news post and forum post is about 10-15 minutes 
Edit: formatting
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