The up front cost to the kitchen contractor is for physical goods that are aptly compared to a âproductâ, not a âserviceâ. The service is of course the time and expertise to install the kitchen competently, neatly, etc. ⌠and that hasnât been provided.
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Those are materials to perform the service. Not the same type of product by any stretch if the imaginationâŚ
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Legally no itâs not a perfect comparison, but the reason contractors write up contracts like that is the same. Purism is guilty of screwing up that aspect of the contract (and itâs easy to criticize with hindsight).
Back to considering the bigger picture which nobody seems to want to address: Do those who wanted refunds consider themselves more entitled to a refund than people who didnât want a refund were entited to getting their device? The end effect of issuing too many refunds (whatever that number was) wouldâve been a failed product and some number of customers getting nothing at all.
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Renovation is arguably a product and a service. I donât see why it matters though. The point is, when you gave them your money, their planning went forward, and part of that money went to things they canât get a refund on.
I couldâve used a better example of a company that has to buy a device first, then do work on it to prepare it in some way, and then ship it. After theyâve purchased and started customizing that device, thatâs your no-going-back date. L5 passed that long agoâŚ
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Well, true, itâs not the same type of product. Not sure why it matters.
When a customer placed an order for a Librem 5, the parts that go into the phone had to be purchased, in order to feed the assembly factory. If you then change your mind about accepting the phone, the parts have still been purchased even if assembly hasnât happened yet.
Overall, the analogy seems fair to me.
Of course there are other differences in the analogy. For example,
- with a kitchen, the parts might well have been purchased specifically and exclusively for your job (since you get to choose colour and material and style and âŚ), whereas with the phone your order is just one order of N orders, all with identical parts
- with the phone, the price to Purism of the parts can depend on the volume - so the price to Purism is dependent on how many units are ordered, which is then invalidated if the customer subsequently has âchange of mindâ
- the software development cost is basically the same whether there are orders for 1 phone or N phones and those costs are planned for and committed regardless of whether the customer subsequently has âchange of mindâ - and that doesnât really apply to the kitchen since it is assumed that the kitchen is not a bespoke design (but it could be!)
Howâs that reno coming along? 
Itâs more complicated than that. Read the fine print to see when title to the materials passes to you. This could be important if you have paid for the materials up front, and the manufacturer of the materials supplies the materials, and then the service is not delivered (for whatever reason but e.g. the installation company becomes insolvent).
I donât understand why people defending Purism. As long as Purism does not speak about the situation I donât know any mercy about it. Since I got my device and therefor Iâm no victim, I usually ignore this topic. But blaming people who where counting on refund policy is - not - okay. And of course itâs also not okay to blame developers of Purism who did not make any choice about that topic.
However - in case I would be a person who requested a refund, I wouldnât count on a full refund anymore. First because it is not fair - money got invested into product development, second because Purism doesnât seem to pay refunds anymore.
So I see 3 ways to get hands on refunds:
- Get hands on device (within 2 weeks after first E-Mail send) and sell it on ebay or whatever. Itâs also possible to sell it before getting hands on â Purism will transfer the order to another account. Not the best option if price was above 750$, since the current price is 1000$.
- Get virtual refund (credit for Purism shop for other products) + 20% as I read from other users - not sure if itâs true or not. Itâs maybe also possible to transfer this to another account (selling credit to another person with advantages for both). But I would ask Purism before to make sure it works like this.
- Asking Purism for a part of the refund. Shipping the Librem 5 costs money in production and shipping. So Purism has to pay that money in any case. Instead of using it to produce and send more Librem 5 they also could refund this amount of money. Customer will loose some money, but thatâs still a fair deal since Purism already used money for developing.
Not sure if Purism will do that, but the chance is higher than the whole refund. And if they do so, itâs the fastest solution to get cash. Asking costs nothing.
Requesting full refunds will just help Purism, because customer wont get anything (no money and no device). So waiting for a full refund is may the worst choice people can do for themselves.
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Blaming people who keep on doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result.
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And? Did they ever got a real answer? If not than I can understand every behavior from customers - including the stupid ones.
Edit:
Okay there are few exceptions (for example breaking laws themselves - saw it on matrix channel for example), but I think itâs clear what I mean.
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Itâs not like Purism went out and made one big purchase of parts back in 2019, to supply all phone orders from the first order until the present time. If that were the case, then Purismâs not issuing refunds would make sense. But that is not the case. We all know that itâs been hand to mouth financially for Purism since the refund policy was retro actively revoked. New orders come in, buy another small batch of parts to ship a few new phones, then repeat after enough new orders come in to finance the next small batch of phones. Refunds interfere with that formula. The refunds requests if honored, would put a big slow down or stop to order fulfillment.
Todd acts like this is a big secret that only he knows about and that no one else can be allowed to know. But we all know this. The only one that is ignorant is him, for thinking that no one else knows. Well⌠of course he knows that we know, at least by now. The actual secret is that he handles the situation in the same manner as a criminal would handle the situation, whether or not he feels culpable (which, how he feels we canât know if he doesnât tell us).
If I were in Toddâs situation, I would have announced the truth of the situation, no matter how dire the situation was. I would have announced the cancelation of the refund policy, followed by a sincere apology to everyone who was affected. I wouldnât tell lies and make up bogus excuses. I would have said something like âYou can sue me if you want to and you may or may not win. You may or may not be successful at getting your refund if you do win. But in any event, I am going to keep making and shipping as many phones as I possibly can, until everyone who paid for a phone gets either their phone or an eventual refundâ. Then I would have asked for more orders, donations, and leniency so that others could feel some sympathy and sense of wanting to help me meet the objectives of the companyâs social purpose. With some sincerity, that would have not only worked, it would have strengthened peopleâs belief in Todd and his mission, especially now that most of us now have our phones.
As things are now, itâs my opinion that Todd is a criminal, whether or not he has actually been caught and charged or convicted of anything. I think that there are many others who might agree with me. I donât want his company to succeed, even though I believe in the companyâs social purpose. I have a perfectly working Librem 5. I am seriously considering doing a youtube video where in I demonstrate that the phone works just fine, followed by my taking a sledge hammer to it, and then telling everyone why I did it. Successful companies generally donât have customers who feel this way about them.
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Yeah, I guess I should switch to âpragmatic-modeâ. And I will, now.
But I have sent them an email at least once every month since asking for the refund. They answered me maybe three times, then nothing. So I tried that route.
Now, finally, they are responding with âNo refund but the amount + 20% in the shopâ. So I will try to sell my place in the queue â if there is one anymore?
I bought into the idea of the Librem5 with the rules that Purism set at the time. The answer from @muon that âIf someone was counting on that refund money being available as some kind of safety net for a fincancial problem, thatâs incredibly stupid (and hard to believe).â then I am stupid in believing that Purismâs rules at that time was going to be followed by them.
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There is no queue anymore. Youâre a bit too late trying that. There are still some reasons why people would buy from you instead Purism shop, but queue is no selling point anymore.
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How much is the amount?
In 2020, I read several posts on this forum that led me to believe that if I asked for a refund, that I would receive neither the phone nor the refund, ever. So I mentally wrote-off what I spent for the Librem 5 back then, figuring that if I got the phone at some time in the future, then Great. But if not, I learned a lesson. I got the phone a few months ago. So itâs not about the money for me.
I get angry when I read about people now who got stolen from by Purism. I have never seen a business before, that openly and notoriously and publicly steals from people. Purism has no shame, no justification, and no desire to do the right thing. And they get away with it routinely. I would have not accepted credit for what I paid plus twenty percent for another one of their products. Whether or not I would have walked away and let them get away with it is something I donât know at this time. It takes a lot of time, money, and emotional energy to press lawsuits and to win and collect through the courts and banks, no matter if youâre right or wrong. Iâve done that before and you lose more in the battle than they took from you. But Purism has burned their bridge with me.
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The totals incl the 20% is 718,80 USD, so minus the 20% itâs 599 USD.
And @StevenR is right, I donât have the energy nor resources to âfightâ for my money. And I declined the offer of a store credit, and instead asked if I could in some way sell my place, or the refund, to somebody else.
I got hold of a used Sony that runs Sailfish OS, and I am pretty pleased with that, costing me only 120 USDâŚ
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I donât really get what the problem is anymore. The phone is available-- get it shipped, and if you still no longer want it, in mint condition it should be possible to re-sell for the same price given that the direct price now has risen. Not as easy, but itâs better than waiting possibly forever.
I should probably comment on the reverse hypothetical to my OP, since all we can do is speculate: IMO Purism probably should start refunding these early orders, if they can. I wouldnât have said the same thing before everyone waiting for a phone had one, potentially endangering the entire project. If my original hypothetical is the case and they still just arenât able, thatâs different, and hopefully thatâll change at some point. But either way the project needs better closure.
Also to be clear, above I stated that itâd be incredibly stupid to plan on a refund of an expensive product (that you canât afford) to be your safety net if you run into financial problems. I donât think anyone would actually do that⌠emergency money tends to stay in emergency accounts. Assuming a refund policy would be honored is generally reasonable and that situation is unfortunate. A little research wouldâve indicated that this project came with some risk for all involved, so take it as a âbuyer bewareâ lesson. We all get one eventually.
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I think you would have to ask Purism that.
While there is no queue as such, as @Ick points out ⌠it is still valid to sell your order (since your purchase price is probably lower than the current selling price from the Purism shop) and there are still some benefits to the purchaser in buying your order rather than buying your phone.
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@muon, I dont understand why you are arguing with me? âI donât really know what the problem is anymore.â. Then you spend 2/3rds of your mail describing the problems of Purismâs acting. Well, great, that is my point. 
It seems we all agree that if Purism would have stuck with what they promised and/or explained why they had to change things, everything would be ok. Remember, I pre-ordered the L5 to support them.
And yes, Iâve learned the âlessonâ before after backing crowfundings that never materialised. I think I will just consider my $600 as an investment into open source. And I am sorry for being âstupidâ and you are right in that this is âentirely onâ me. Lesson learned. Goodbye Purism.
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Whoâs arguing? Maybe I have a much higher threshold for what consitutes an argument. I have an annoying habit of trying to bring balance and full context to conversations⌠personality flaw maybe.
The problem I was addressing with that statement is the problem of âI still donât have a refund, and no phoneâ, with an attempt to provide a productive solution.
Like I said before, the refund policy change is a shame, and their reputation took a big hit for it in addition to some other mis-steps, on a very hard project that (IMO) was too ambitious. But all this talk of Purism being âtheivesâ or âcriminalsâ and other such crazy talk - from everything Iâve seen thatâs just hyperbolic nonsense (and possibly worse).
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