Europe Plans Law to Give All Phones Same Charger


#61

i’m quite suspicious of anything high powered wireless :sweat:


#62

High powered wireless? I got your high powered wireless right here! And it even agrees with this subject line by being called LaWS.

AN/SEQ-3 Laser Weapon System or XN-1 LaWS


#63

Huh? I’m clearly having a hard time understanding what you are saying or why, but you certainly seem passionate about it.

Can’t disagree with that!

I think Collectivism and Individualism are at odds, but Cooperation and Individualism are not.

Yep, I am a Free Market Anarchist, although I would be very happy if society were largely Minarchist. That means that I disagree with probably 95% of those who identify as some sort of anarchist.

Anarchism doesn’t pick a side, per se, but individuals who decide for themselves how to “organize” pick a side by virtue of making the choice. My brand of anarchy, however, never forces others to take my side.

When it comes to phone chargers, or any other commodity, it’s best to let individuals, acting as market participants, decide standards.


#64

Why?

Anarchism never does that. It seeks to destroy unnecessary and unjust hierarchy (which coerces people).

Market Anarchism and Post-Left Anarchism exist but Capitalism and Anarchism are oil and water. It creates a system where you are coerced into working for others rather than for yourself. It allows for the expropriation of your labor. So I hope you don’t mean you’re an Anarcho-capitalist because that is contradictory. And another example of where freedom is being taken from you is regarding what i quoted below.

In theory I would agree, however the bad and uninformed decisions of others affect the direction of the market. In a few years I wouldn’t be surprised if 90% of phones would drop the charging port, head phone jack, all have a notch, etc. I also wouldn’t doubt seeing smart TVs being pushed on consumers by large corporations because data is profitable. I mean batteries are no longer removable already.

All in all I hope I at least demonstrated that markets can coerce people, and even in ways that cannot be justified. And not to dunk on individualism, egoism, mutualism, or other tendencies. Anarchism is without adjectives, and it recognizes no master, and that includes a boss. Sorta defeats the purpose if you have one.

Very, I don’t see using the state as a tool to subjugate the subjugator as an issue. In fact it’s needed, because many governments have put themselves in a position where they cannot be challenged. The conditions must be right for anarchism to rise. So for the meanwhile, putting apple in it’s place and making it stop coercing people into buying a licensed cable is such a small fry issue. Especially because it uses state violence to enforce it’s patent and licensing. However using the state to subjugate a small business, inventors, farmers (fuck Monsanto) , is harming the innocent. Meanwhile Apple isn’t innocent. They have a lions share of the addressable phone market, and to do it they rely on the state to oppress and subjugate third world nations which are corrupt and allow for child labor (li ion), they subjugate users by taking their freedom away, and they shouldn’t get any sympathy because they force Foxconn workers in an oppressive regime to work under shitty conditions.

In conclusion the lightning connectors are a form of coercion!


#65

First thing which came to my mind :slight_smile:

The fact that I can put my 3g wifi hotspot on the wireless charger in my car and national express coach hints me that yes, such standard exists.


#66

does it even have to be THAT high-powered ? :cold_sweat:


#67

i respect RAW power, wisdom, strength of character, common-sense, knowledge, kindness, mercy, compassion, empathy, and all the other GOD rays that emanate from the DIVINE being that do NOT coerce ANY creatures using FORCE … and that is how it should be in any political/economic system NO-MATTER what it’s called or how many wikipedia pages describe it using human language …


#68

Idk what you mean by RAW power but everything else is covered in the works of anarchists past and present. Companies making proprietary hardware and software shouldn’t. It’s a tool for subjugation and it is unacceptable. The existence of a lighting connector cannot be justified, and it is only used to sell products which expropriate the rights of users. I mean if you really think about it libre software and hardware are anarchistic in nature, it allows for ultimate individual, and collective control. Stallman talks about this at length many times. And even though Stallman was a scumbag he was right about a lot and predicted the issues we have to day as a result of corporate subjugation. This subjugation is accepted because the state uses violence to enforce patent law. Apple exploits the less computer literate with exorbitant fees for mediocre hardware. Even Louis Rossman, who doesn’t agree with my perspective recognizes this. And the hardware is objectively inferior to the specifications of other computers, which then leads the entire industry to opportunistically over charge consumers. This is why an injury to one is an injury to all. The same applies with smart televisions, HDCP, DRM in general and the market as a whole. One ignorant consumer through no fault of his own buys a product which is planned to go obsolete, and the rest of the opportunistic leeches in society follow. I think i’ve reasonably demonstrated why freedom demands that the USB C chargers must become a standard because companies will exploit us. And why exploitation is mutually exclusive to freedom.


#69

to add to this … i’ve seen many SAT-NAV devices that are CURRENTLY on the shelves in my country but have been forsaken (map update wise) by the manufacturers … they have either become insolvent and closed business but are STILL sold at reduced prices across a wide range of computer-shops … M$ embeded CE 6.0 last build 2016 :face_with_symbols_over_mouth:


#70

As getting discount on obsolete SAT-NAV-MAP software some young people might learn from there a lot about open source turn-by-turn navigation by playing around (installing something up to date) with Navit, NAVeGIS, mapFactor Navigator, … on top of WinCE/Windows Mobile navigation (if free traffic info inclusive I don’t know). But still, it might easily/actually be more about (as with all other last year collections like clothing, shoes, etc.) secondary markets before such products land within some third countries as electronic waste (up to my knowledge here subject related). Therefore, IMHO, lighting cables (upgrade to the 30-pin dock connector) should disappear from the EU shelves ASAP (I just saw a lot of them on several gas/petrol stations) even by means of considering how to return them back to the manufacturer (just adding some bitter taste to it, not really serious) as not compliant with the upcoming Q3 2020 EU regulation. For example, TI white paper USB Type-C™ represents breakthrough connectivity (December 2015) writes down: “Alternate mode allows you to transmit uncompressed video across the cable while maintaining USB 2.0 data and Type-C and PD 2.0 configuration only charging capabilities.” And, someone, please consider uploading this definition (for those interested in true story and not in “better choice”; my own financial benefit know-how) within appropriate Wikipedia page:

And I like, as kind of objective approach, this one (linked to September 13, 2012 source) too: Meanwhile Apple has worked around previous EU attempts to push device makers to standardize charging on Micro USB by expanding its revenue-generating dongle collection - and selling Europeans a Lighting to Micro USB adaptor. Thereby necessitating even more e-waste.


#71

Sorry I didn’t read the article because I could not go pass all the privacy cookie stuff labyrinth of yahoo. But I totally agree that the dongle-idea of Apple is even worse. They had it for micro usb and earned even more money by it and they do the same thing for headphone jacks - either you buy their headset or you need to use the dongle lightning to headphones. That’s why the librem 5 does everything right using the defacto standard of usb c and has the courage jack. I would hope everyone does it this way and I hope that this dongle stuff will also not be allowed with the legislation.

Apart from that I also hope that legislation will have an expiry date for the industry standard and one year before the expiry there is another possibility of the industry to get a new standard approved for a new time. Like this you would have a good mix - less waste, less high prices for everyone living on their own platform and still progress.


#72

On the other hand, there would be an ongoing need for dongle charging adapters.

If the only charger that is legal to sell in the EU is USB-C and you have any existing iPhone and your charger dies (or is lost or stolen) then you will need a USB-C to Lightning adapter.

However if it is true that the goal of this (future) law is to reduce electronic waste then the regulators can’t really complain about Apple’s revenue generation.

I still don’t see how Apple can possibly be expected to redesign the current model of iPhone or any future models of iPhone that are in the pipeline to have them use USB-C charging and to do that redesign by July 1 this year.

It is also doubtful whether it is reasonable to expect Apple to flush its inventory pipeline by then. Might be able to pick up a spiPhone “real cheap” in June. :slight_smile:

I make both of those statements on the basis of the fact that nothing is law yet. (The EU could just as easily standardise on wireless charging or decouple charging from data.)


#73

I do not really care how it is done as long as I can get rid of those 40 different chargers that are needed for all the different devices.

EU could require ONE charger type and then stand aside and look at the fight between the companies that have to agree … OR we could restore Colosseum in Rome and send the companies to fight each others as gladiators. It would be a popular TV program in the whole world. Personally I would like to send in some starving lions too but I think EU would not agree.

Well, that is far enough from the subject. Micro-USB is now fairly common in many devices but it is gathering lint in the pocket and is mechanically not very good. I hope USB-C is better but have no long time experience with it. Apple I never use anyway so they can use whatever they want.

Remember those round DC plugs ? Especially 5.5/2.1 and 5.5/2.5 mm. Those manufacturers could be tossed into the snake pit for making problems for billions of consumers.

(Well, that was a joke ! Nowadays you have to tell explicitly what is a joke because there are a lot of people around who could take it seriously. What a world we are living in)


#74

lions are carnivores and they don’t eat Apple(s) … that is a fruit and nowadays it isn’t as healthy as it used to be … unless it’s ECO grown :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


#75

The solution for standardized chargers should not be dongles. One can see that this solution did not work for the first standard the industry chose (micro usb).

it’s about the phone to work with the standard - not about chargers for legacy devices

decoupling the data would not follow the goal of having less electronic waste if charging is standardized but there are 5 different data cables or the other way round.

In the end I would not even mind if lightńing would be the standard instead of usb-c. But would Apple want to release that standard and have it to be used by everyone without having Apple to have the monopoly on selling or licensing it? And that’s why I think Apple does not want to have a common standard - it’s about loosing a very profitable business. I think that’s understandable by everyone - but that’s not how they argue…


#76

Perhaps that well illustrates the problems with this kind of proposal.

  1. If it locks in the idea that power and data must be supplied via the same mechanism then this is locking in weaker security. It is legally preventing a phone manufacturer from deciding not to accept that weaker security - and it is legally preventing a customer from deciding not to accept that weaker security.

  2. If it expands from “giving all phones the same charger” to “giving all phones the same charger and data interface” then it is moving from an area of low innovation and change to an area of high innovation and change - to an area that is more likely to be problematic to lock in.

However based on what the EU parliament actually voted, it does not seem to be justified to conclude that the scope of this particular proposal does include any intent to standardise the data interface.

Calls, therefore, on the Commission to take action to introduce the common charger without any further delay

The resolution mentions “charger” in many places. It does not appear to mention data interface at all.

With a common charger that utilises a mechanism that is independent of the data interface, there is no general need for a data cable at all. Since basically every mobile phone is going to support WiFi and WiFi these days can do most of the things that you would do with a data cable, perhaps you can have the option of not ordering a data cable, without standardising the data interface.

Would the EU Commission be bold enough to decouple power and data? I doubt it. Particularly not if they want new mobile phones sold in the EU after June 30, 2020 to be bound by the new regulation. (On the other hand, decoupling power and data would be a more level playing field since it would force every phone manufacturer to change design.)


#77

I just want to share this news (by slightly extending this thread topic), with hope that Librem 5 will get, if and when applicable, some kind of the German ecolabel: Blue Angel for Software (at least).

This is official (avoiding Google Translate link) translation from Federal Ministry for the Environment, Nature Conservation and Nuclear Safety (BMU), Germany, Press release No. 038/20, 02.03.2020:

More than 70 measures should help to use digitalization for environmental protection

Federal Environment Minister Svenja Schulze presented the BMU’s environmental policy digital agenda in Berlin today. The agenda contains more than 70 concrete measures. The goal is on the one hand to steer digitization in an environmentally compatible way and on the other hand to use the opportunities of digitization for environmental protection. The digital agenda is the first strategy in Europe that consistently combines digitization and environmental protection. It was developed by the Federal Environment Ministry in a broad dialogue with around 200 experts, including the Wuppertal Institute.

Federal Environment Minister Svenja Schulze: “With this digital agenda, we are doing real pioneering work. Environmental protection is part of every algorithm. Because uncontrolled digitization becomes a climate problem. With the right guard rails, digitization can also help to contain climate change and stop species extinction On the one hand, we steer digitization in an environmentally friendly way. On the other hand, we have to take advantage of the enormous opportunities of digitization for environmental protection.”

Prof. Dr.-Ing. Manfred Fischedick, Scientific Director of the Wuppertal Institute: “In this decade it will be decided whether we can still use the lever and achieve the sustainability goals. Digitization can make an important contribution to solutions if we steer digitization intelligently and use it in a value-oriented manner. To reduce the energy and resource requirements of digitization, to bundle the positive creative forces, among other things for the implementation of the energy and mobility turnaround and the circular economy, and to exploit the innovation potential A strong message from the digital agenda, which means that Germany can play an important pioneering role in Europe and achieve a high level of multiplication at a global level.”

The agenda comprises a total of more than 70 measures. For example, the Federal Environment Agency is to create a register for data centers as a data basis for future efficiency targets. Smartphones and tablets are to have a longer life thanks to new rules at EU level. The EU Ecodesign Directive should stipulate that manufacturers must make batteries and displays interchangeable and offer spare parts or updates for a minimum period. In this context, the BMU is also committed to a “guarantee obligation”. “Manufacturers should have to say in the future how long their product is guaranteed to last. Then customers will know immediately where they are when they buy,” said the minister.

The agenda also includes suggestions for greener online shopping. The aim is to facilitate environmentally friendly shopping through more transparency. A quick way to do this would be for online retailers to commit themselves to incorporate environmental protection criteria into their search algorithms or to display products with the Blue Angel separately. The BMU is currently researching relevant concepts together with online trading. A so-called digital product passport also offers great opportunities in this area. This is a data set that summarizes what a product is made of, how climate-friendly the production was, how it can be repaired, where there are spare parts and what needs to be taken into account during disposal or recycling. The BMU intends to further advance this approach at European level.

The BMU digital agenda also contains concrete suggestions on the subject of streaming. For example, as part of a voluntary commitment, streaming service providers could be persuaded to operate data centers with 100 percent green electricity and to use the waste heat sensibly. In addition, the autoplay should be deactivated by default and videos should only be offered in the quality that suits the end device and is even perceptible to the human eye.

The Federal Environment Ministry has broken new ground with the development of the environmental policy digital agenda. In a three-week # environment.werkstatt employees of the BMU and its four federal offices, together with renowned experts from science and associations, business and civil society, developed the foundations for the environmental policy digital agenda. The BMU will discuss the agenda at re: publica in May. The Federal Environment Minister would also like to use the German EU Council Presidency in the second half of 2020 to advance the concerns of the digital agenda in the EU.

Schulze: “We are facing major challenges, both in environmental protection and in digitization. That is why it is important to bring together environmental expertise and digitization expertise. My ministry will continue this dialogue. Because like any software, the environmental policy digital agenda is only useful then when she gets a constant update.”

Source: https://www.bmu.de/pressemitteilung/bundesumweltministerin-schulze-legt-erste-umweltpolitische-digitalagenda-vor/


#78

(my emphasis)

Wow, OK, hope you get your phone before that comes in. Sounds like a nightmare with about zero chance of working if introduced, say, June 30. (Batteries likely to be problematic too.)

Or maybe something got lost in translation??? e.g. must make it that the display can be replaced (feasibly and at a reasonable price for a minimum of, say, 5 years after purchase) if it is e.g. smashed by the customer v. I can take a display for another phone and install it on this phone (interchangeable).

The harsh likelihood is that if the laws are too prescriptive then the Librem 5 could never have been developed for the EU market.

That can lead to so called “green washing”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwashing

Depends on how rigorously it is tested, how rigorously it is administered - because for sure online retailers (or offline retailers for that matter) cannot be expected to audit the claimed green credentials of the product.

I would like to see accreditation for, and search criteria for, security and privacy credentials. White Angel? :slight_smile:

I want Blue and White.


#79

I don’t speak German, but according to Google Translate, “austauschbar” can be translated as “interchangeable”, “exchangeable” or “replaceable”. The only way this directive makes any sense is if this is interpreted as “replaceable”, not as “interchangeable”. There is no reason for manufacturers to be forced to sell replacement parts for 5 years, if the screens and batteries are interchangeable between different phone and tablet models, since the parts can be gotten from any source.

However, if this directive is enforced, it will induce the manufacturers to start using standardized form factors for their screens and batteries, so that they can more easily source replacement parts. For example, phone manufacturers will probably have a meeting and agree to start using a few standard sizes of batteries and screens, so that they can get replacement parts from many different factories.

The real question is whether “austauschbar” means “user replaceable” or it just means “you can buy the replacement part, but it may not be easy to replace.” According to the gsmarena.com database, 93% of the new mobile phone models introduced in 2019 didn’t have a replaceable battery, and the last tablet with a replaceable battery was introduced in 2012. Most cases today are glued shut and they have glass backs which are very easy to break. The only way to open them is with a heat gun and suction cups and it is a very delicate operation that takes 10 - 20 minutes.

I would if love it if Germany forces manufacturers to change the way that they design their phones so that they are easy to fix, but the electronics industry would fight this tooth and nail. Still, just forcing manufacturers to sell replacement screens and batteries for 5 years and provide instructions on how to replace the parts would be a big improvement, even if everything is still glued shut.

I also love the idea of forcing web designers to no longer use auto-play videos, unless the user explicitly sets a configuration option for it. It drives me batty when videos start playing when I’m trying to read a news article. I find it incredibly distracting, and I get really annoyed at all the data that is being consumed for no reason. The environmental impact of auto-play video must be tremendous if we think about this on a global scale.


#80

I’d like to sum up, sort of, focus on several things in favor of Librem 5 current development, design and approach which shows to me that German minister for environment didn’t miss the target (old apple-phone that needs very expensive, “professional” repair) or, if you will, shows the path (instead of allowing to the manufactures that “think about environment a lot” to lead as “they will”, by producing “the very elite phones” that will be obsolete after four seasons, at maximum) for the future trend in production of any wireless communication device. About user-replaceable display (should include obligatory User manual on how-to: with manufacturer-compliant repair part number, manufacturer-compliant procedure, tools needed), user-replaceable battery and other short-life HW components it is stated: “Die verpflichtende Bereitstellung von Updates, Reparaturanleitungen, Ersatzteilen und Werkzeugen sowie herstellerübergreifenden Lösungen zum Austausch von Akkus, Displays und weiteren kurzlebigen Hardware-komponenten sind daher zentral für modulares Design, Reparierbarkeit und die Lebensdauer von Geräten.” In short, emphasis is on modular design, self-repair and extended (or minimum guarantied) lifetime of devices (as a whole unit). - ★★★ for Purism L5 (just from my side and just at the moment).

From, in/for public, presented “Digital Agenda” document itself it is to be read: “Die Politik setzt die Rahmenbedingungen. … Ein Konsum, wie ihn etwa die frühzeitige Entwertung von Geräten durch Software-Updates in Gang setzt. … Das kann die Politik ebenfalls unterstützen, etwa über Siegel wie den Blauen Engel für Software oder über unabhängige Empfehlungen zum nachhaltigen IT-Konsum.” This Software-Updates, actually, as we within Linux-phone world understand this as Software-Upgrades, gives to Purism L5 phone another (not to forget actual community efforts to bring those to life, like Camera issues) advantage with logical intention they will support end user for very long time with upcoming firmware/software improvements and upgrades. - ☆☆☆☆☆ - ★★★★★ (twice) for Purism L5 (self and community related software development).

Next round of having dialog with public is scheduled for republica GmbH’s re:publica Berlin 2020 and I’m quite positive that I dreamed last night that Purism will have speech over there in 2021.

We all may have our own opinion (like myself), different current feelings about upcoming political (likely to be implemented) changes but we, Linux-phone community, are not afraid of those as most of the things are still in development (with good and positive intentions toward end-user, which at the same time include global environment considerations too). @kieran, those that “are afraid” now (not you), they might need (sooner or latter) to change their corrupt course of action just because eventually upcoming CE Marking (by including HW firmware and software sources life-time evaluation) proof-procedure changes might be applicable, in order to receive pass-through stamp, only to the phones like Librem 5 and PinePhone.

Let me try to translate this my way: European politics welcomes Librem 5 to Europe without battle, but if Purism needs to proof something within USA, let them fight (might lose if stubborn enough). Any company that read (study) up front this, just presented, Digital Agenda may easily and relatively soon become another, very traditional North American export hit, talking here about Harley-Davidson, for example.