For fanboys/fangirls: Did I make a mistake ordering the Librem 5 USA?

Regarding my inquiry about the timeline for a refund, I was personally told by Purism support:
“We can start the process immediately upon request, previously it would usually take 1-3 weeks, but for past few months we’re experiencing delays with refunds, so the process takes more time to complete (I’m afraid can’t discuss the reasons).”

I have this email from Purism in my mailbox and would be happy to forward it to you. Can you give me one reason other than Purism being in a bad financial situation why Purism cannot give refunds in a prompt manner, and in fact did not even try to give me a definite timeline for my refund?

No, since, like you, I’m not in possession of the facts.

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I’m reading here that Purism raised over 9 miilion dollars?

Did they report that figure? It seems like a lot of money for such a niche company. Or is it a realistic figure? Would we even know if its realistic?

$9,811,000

I’m not going to speculate what their financial situation is (except that it sure is suspect when you cannot or will not issue refunds promptly), but for a hardware company, $9 million (and really, I think it is closer to $7 million because they’d raised $2 million or something in previous convertible notes) is extremely insignificant, especially for as many products as Purism maintains. I’m not a Purism defender, but I’ll step in here and say that my own experience hardware manufacturing shows that this is actually fairly conservative, if not too low, for what Purism would need (with the caveat that I don’t know their run rate, their sales, or how much money they’ve previously raised via convertible notes, bank loans, or VC).

Off the top of my heads, here are just some of the costs Purism needs to account for:

For some products (the mini PC and the server), it’s literally just a matter of buying components from an ODM or OEM and then customizing it, but that still would require a certain amount of capital outlay (though probably not $9m unless you were expecting significant volumes of orders and needed to have pre-stock). But for a phone, or a more customized laptop like the Librem 14, it’s a lot more expensive.

In addition to buying up parts (which has been more expensive over the past 2 years because of the shortages), you have to account for tooling, time on the manufacturing line with your ODM, money for design iterations (the issue they didn’t catch on the Librem 14 until it was shipped back, for instance), ideally money for someone who can be in-person in the factory inspecting things before they are shipped off. Shipping to the US. Then you’ve got the additional fees of setting up a production/assembly line for L5 USA, which means additional tooling costs, US labor (which would be significantly higher than what you’d pay in Vietnam or Taiwan or wherever you’d manufacture your main products (China is actually a bit more expensive now so Foxconn and the like are increasingly going to other countries)), QA testing, etc.

Then you have costs related to your office/shipping/logistics centers. Personnel costs. Insurance. Taxes. Oh, and now they want to frontload inventory rather than doing the JIT model, which changes the terms of payment and requires a greater outlay of capital to hold stock.

And that isn’t even getting into costs related to software development. Or costs for maintaining servers and build infrastructure. I imagine LibremOne is pretty cheap to run, but there are costs associated with that too.

Obviously, in a perfect world, those costs would be paid for by sales. But consider that at $2000 ASP, you’d need to sell 4500 laptops to make $9m in revenue. That’s a lot of laptops for a niche player. Consider too that Purism has thousands of outstanding Librem 5 orders that they almost certainly sold for too little (b/c R&D costs combined with increasing component costs have shown that initial $600 price was too low, hence why it has gone up ever few months), that they need to use not just the convertible note but future sales to fund.

What they claim they’ve raised might very well be sufficient. But it’s not a lot of money for a hardware product, especially something as complex as a phone. Recall that Canonical was only able to raise $13 million for the Ubuntu Edge project (of a proposed $32m), so it ended the crowdfunding effort for that phone. Canonical realized, smartly I think, that $13 million wasn’t enough for what it would take the design and develop a handset.

One of the most successful Kickstarter projects was the Coolest Cooler, which raised over $10m in crowdfunding for a $200 cooler with a blender that could attach to it. It turns out, that cooler cost a lot more than $200 to make. And after years of attempts to salvage itself (and a fine from the state of Oregon), the company wound up going bankrupt, with many of its backers never having received their cooler. I’m not comparing Purism to Coolest. I’m simply pointing out how much money it took to create a cooler with a blender attached to the top.

So no, to me, $9m doesn’t seem like a lot at all. If anything, it could be low for what Purism is trying to do.

There’s a reason most hardware startup fail and it’s because hardware is incredibly expensive, particularly if you don’t have a lot of experience doing it.

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There’s no difference.

Specifying several weeks/months lead time directly contradicts the “in stock” statement:

A product is either in stock for the would-be customer (and not for someone who has already placed an order) — and, therefore, should not take longer than 1-2 weeks to assemble and ship, or it is not in stock. Introducing own definitions of commonly used terms is effectively false, deceitful advertising. Especially when it persists despite numerous complaints about orders still not shipped after times the lead time.

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You are speculating that someone is going to design a custom chip with the same dimensions, same labels and IDs, and same functionality as the real chip and then infiltrate the Purism supply chain in Carlsbad, California just to put those ersatz chips on one of the boards in L5USA? Do you realize how much work that would involve and the kind of budget that would take? Who would do that for a phone in development that has to be charged twice a day, has only shipped 2600 units so far, and is mostly used by Linux geeks?

Even if you distrust Synopsys’s proprietary DDR4 timing blob stored on the separate 2MB SPI NOR Flash chip, then you can pull that blob off the chip and compare it with the code that you can download from NXP’s web site (you have to register with an email address that looks like a company email, so not Google, Yahoo, Hotmail, etc.). You can run md5sum on the two blobs to ensure that your phone has the same Synopsys blob as NXP’s web site.

Synopsys (which has a $53 billion market cap) and NXP (which has a $58 billion market cap) are not going to risk their businesses by providing spyware, because if news ever got out that they were doing this, they would lose serious customers and their stock value would plummet. Synopsys and NXP sell to companies that do understand the technical details, and Synopsys understands that it would lose most of its business to competitors like Cadence, Mentor Graphics or Agnisys, if it were selling them spyware. Look at what happened to Supermicro’s stock when it lost 40% of its value, dropping from $20.61 to $12.40 within a day after the Bloomberg story of Chinese spy chips being inserted in its motherboards. The stock value recovered, because no evidence was produced to back up the Bloomberg story, so most businesses that buy Supermicro motherboards decided that the story was false. However, if the story had been verified, Supermicro would have been destroyed as a business. Look at how much effort Cisco has put into lobbying the US government to stop the NSA from intercepting its equipment during shipping, and that was a highly targeted program, that probably only effected a tiny number of its customers. Google and Apple have millions of clueless customers, so they aren’t nearly as vulnerable as businesses like Synopsys and NXP that supply tech companies, yet look at how Google and Apple started implementing encryption everywhere to hinder NSA spying after the Snowden revelations publicized the fact that the NSA had access to their servers.

Aside from the fact that I don’t think that Synopsys and NXP would risk putting spyware into the DDR4 timing code, I also don’t think that it is technically possible to do any serious spying at that point in the boot procedure, when almost nothing is functioning, so you would have to include all the code to bring up the critical systems and operate them–in other words, you would need a mini-operating system and the drivers for some communication device and a TCP/IP stack, and I don’t think that is even possible with just 2MB of code. No matter how good your obfuscation techniques are, you can’t hide an entire OS of that size, and someone looking at the binary with a hex editor can see that something isn’t right, plus they will see communications from the WiFi or cellular modem and will wonder why there is communications during bootup and start analyzing the traffic.

The only scenario that makes sense to me is if the DDR4 timing blob inserts some code that will be executed after u-boot finishes the bootup, but that means altering code stored on the eMMC, and then having that code disappear, so it is not detectable later.

At this point, the L5 doesn’t have verified boot, so I’m not going to say that it is impossible for the DDR4 timing blob to insert code in the boot files which aren’t currently encrypted, but there is no reason for Synopsys, NXP or Purism to want to risk destroying their businesses to do this. The only way that this makes any sense is if you are talking about some 3rd party hacking both the NXP and Purism servers to change their copies of the blob and altering their published checksums, so that none of this is detectable.

Honestly, I don’t think you are talking about anything that will ever happen in the real world, because this is beyond anything that a normal hacker can do, and it requires the resources of a state actor with deep pockets (like the USA’s NSA, Britain’s GCHQ, Israel’s Unit 8200 or China’s 3PLA). There is far easier hardware for state spy agencies to target, and at this point, I doubt that many people high on their target lists are actually using the L5.

Even if Purism were secretly collaborating with the NSA, it would be very hard for Purism to do any spying with the L5, because so much of the software can be verified and altered by the user, and there is so much isolation of the individual components. The L5 uses six separate chips in place of an integrated mobile SoC like a Snapdragon, and components like the RS9116, BM818 and Teseo-LIV3F really can’t get at the memory of the code being execute by PureOS or any other distro that you chose to install. Remember that Purism has made over 150 commits to mainline Linux to support the L5’s hardware, you so that in the future it will be possible to install any distro on the L5 (which was one of the original crowdfunding goals), so that you don’t have to trust Purism’s OS.

Purism would also be destroyed as a business if someone discovered that Purism was deliberately putting backdoors in the L5, and I imagine that many of the people working there would also quit on principal. I have no idea what Purism pays its developers on the L5, but I’m pretty sure that they are all taking pay cuts to work at Purism, and it has to be a very stressful job, so they do it because they believe in the mission, and those sort of idealistic people won’t stay if they discover something nefarious at Purism.

If Purism had some nefarious plot to hide backdoors on the L5, it wouldn’t have hired people like Guido Gunther (Debian dev), Adrien Plazas (GTK/GNOME dev), Mohammed Sadiq (GTK/GNOME dev), Alexander Mikhaylenko (GNOME dev), Evangelos R. Tzaras (Mobian dev), Angus Ainslie (former Openmoko distro maintainer), Sebastian Krzyszkowiak (long-time Linux phone hacker for FSO and Neo900) and Nicole Faerber (founder of the GPE Palmtop Environment), because these are people who have long histories of working on this stuff and they have public reputations to protect, so they are likely to publicly expose any backdoors that they find on the phone.

Let’s assume in 5 years that the software will be good enough that there really are significant people using the L5 (foreign government officials, corporate leaders, criminals, political leaders, dissidents, etc.) that spy agencies want to monitor. At that point, it may make sense to worry about nefarious firmware or spy chips being inserted in the M.2 boards for the RS9116 WiFi/BT or BM818 modem, since those parts are essentially black boxes and they handle communications, but I think the far more likely target would be cracking PureOS’s security, rather than messing with firmware or hardware spy chips. In 5 years time, the L5 will probably have verified boot, good sandboxing of apps with Flatpack+bubblewrap and more secure communications based on encryption keys stored on an OpenPGP card, so it will be harder to compromise. By that point, Ubuntu Touch will be ported to the L5, which already provides verified boot and good sandboxing. Furthermore, it is likely that the community will have found other M.2 cards that can be used in place of the M.2 cards that the L5 uses, so you can switch out the WiFi/BT and cellular modems if you don’t trust Purism.

Aside from the PinePhone, there is no other phone on the market that allows you to recompile everything in the OS and to verify how it works down to the schematics, except the PinePhone. However, the PP’s hardware kill switches are not useful in my opinion, you can’t turn off its sensors with physical switches, and you can’t replace its modem and WiFi/BT, it doesn’t have a smartcard reader for an OpenPGP card, and it isn’t paying programmers to work on its security.

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On this point, I agree with you that saying “in stock” and a 90 day lead time are contradictory, and I wish that Purism would be more transparent in its marketing.

There is another possibility that hasn’t been discussed in this thread. Purism may have the components in stock, but it may be having having trouble producing the PCBs, because running its own board assembly line takes practice and often requires many iterations and adjustments to get it right. My L5USA which was apparently one of the first to be shipped had problems with its speakers and camera, and I had to send it back to be repaired, which suggests that they were still perfecting the process.

I have no idea why Purism used the term “in stock” when it also says a 90 day lead time, but I used to work at a company that designed its own AV converter boards, and I know that we had unexpected issues arise. If you want the first phone to be manufactured in the US since the Moto X in 2014 and you know that it is being produced in very small batches by a company that just set up its own board assembly line, then you should not be surprised that setbacks and delays may occur. Purism may be trying to manually resolder some components, having to figure out its QA procedure, having to train people to better use the equipment, having to order new parts to replace the parts that got used up in producing defective boards that it can’t fix or many other things that could cause delays. Maybe Purism should be more transparent here about the problems it is encountering, but transparency can also harm sales. If Purism put out a press release saying that it was taking more time to figure out PCB assembly than it expected, it has to worry that people won’t order the phone. Of course, I’m speculating here, but I do know that the things that Purism is attempting to do are very hard, and unexpected things can occur.

What I do know is that Purism is willing to attempt to do things that other companies won’t attempt, and I think those attempts need to be supported, because if Purism can’t make it work, then we are left with no company doing them.

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“because if Purism can’t make it work, then we are left with no company doing them.”

That is effectively the case already. For all that we have seen, they might as well be doing nothing. And they’re lying about it.

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I understand transparency can hurt sales and that all companies are going to want to present themselves as successful (I believe because people view a successful business as more dependable). That said, it is wrong to use immoral means even if one attempts to arrive at moral ends. Even if Purism does not want full transparency regarding issues it is having with production of its devices, at the very least Purism could stop lying about items being “in stock” (when clearly they are not, and the 90 day lead time contradicts the label of “in stock”). I placed an order (not a preorder, for those of you who can’t follow the thread) for a Librem 5 USA because Purism said it was “in stock.” I’m cancelling my order because I have determined that Purism doesn’t actually have it “in stock” for me (and others who have waited much longer than me). One might claim this is a great example of why deceit was necessary to get my order in the first place, but that’s ridiculous. Instead of me having a neutral-to-positive view of Purism as a company before these shenanigans, Purism is turning me into someone who distrusts Purism, won’t purchase from Purism, and won’t advise other people to purchase from Purism.

EDIT: for the record, if Purism would just voluntarily give me a prompt refund for my cancelled order (rather than basically tell me “we don’t know when we can refund your money”), I would still have a fairly neutral view of Purism, and might even purchase from them in the future if they can get their business in order. It is Purism’s business actions that are making me have a negative view of them, which hurts Purism in the long run (as I will still get my money back via a credit card chargeback and I will not advise others to purchase from Purism). Purism is hurting themselves by lying about device availability and by not treating customers rightly.

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If Purism does not ship my Librem 5 USA by early February, what do you propose I do?

You started out by asking “What should I do?” (in February if you don’t get your phone) but apparently have subsequently gone ahead and cancelled your order even though you haven’t presented any justification for why you are entitled to cancel an order that is not late.

So I guess this topic is officially pointless.

… and round and round we go.

They aren’t developing the phone from scratch with that $9m (or $7m). The phone already exists. I have one. It works. But, yes, it needs further work in some areas.

We don’t even know what they intend to do with the money. Is it for the Librem 5 (further software development, v2, …) or for the Librem 5 USA or for something else entirely? Too much is speculation.

We do. Any objections?

It’s the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Showing the same film in a cinema again and again is insane, isn’t it?

Yes, it is, unless you show it to different people. Here, the same people read it.

Some do. But some seem to only pay attention to the last several posts and ask questions that have been answered earlier in the thread. I sometimes do not mind answering again and again.

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Kind of like expecting that Purism will deliver the L5 USA in 90 days even though Purism has not been delivering L5 USA within 90 days?

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What I believe is that once you had decided you really wanted it, and then decided to purchase it, you should have waited for it to be delivered. Instead of listening to all the FUD. But that’s only my opinion.
:slight_smile:

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Purism is really hurting people. It’s sad that there still people there defending them.

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I am not a believer in Purism, and I’m not willing to become such a believer in any company and promised products. That said, @amarok, you have been very civil and reasonable in this discussion, so thank you.

I’m not sure there is much point in this discussion anymore. To me it seems the fanboys/fangirls have basically said I should just trust and wait for Purism, but I’m not going to do that, and at this point there doesn’t seem to be much progress in the discussion. As such, I believe I will stop responding, unless there is a substantial reason I ought to. To Purism enthusiasts still waiting for your products: good luck! I truly do hope you get what you’re waiting for and hope that Purism becomes and operates as a legitimate business.