Hanlon’s razor apply here as well: Why even write defamatory rubbish like this in the first place? Malice or Incompetence?
If you can’t edit your post please ask Purism to delete it.
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Financially, yes. But you are totally kidding yourself if you think that you know everything about the privacy exploits of the surveillance capitalists. From time to time something unpleasant surfaces but really they keep the full extent of their abuse of your privacy and of your data a secret.
Wow, that was a long wait. 
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You file for bankruptcy. That’s literally what you do when you cannot meet your obligations to your creditors (and as soon as you miss wages, your employees become creditors). Depending on the type of bankruptcy, there might be a restructuring of the company or it might be dissolved/liquidated. If the company is dissolved/liquidated, the courts will decide repayment priority.
This isn’t some philosophical question about what road a company choose to take; it’s very, very simple: if you do not have the money to pay your debts, you file for bankruptcy.
You don’t put refunding customers per your past terms (or even worse, refunding after already accepting products back) because you don’t have the money to pay another creditor and to make good on your obligations, you file for bankruptcy because that is the law. That filing is important because it is there to protect potential future creditors.
It is not OK to put off paying your debts because in seven more days, you think you’ll get more capitol. If you are that convinced that you can find a workaround, the courts will work with you on restructuring your debts and paying things back in a process. But you as the business cannot take on that process by yourself, the courts MUST be involved in you want to be a legal business entity.
If Purism cannot pay both its employee salaries and make good on refunds it owes its customers, it must file for bankruptcy. If it can can make good on both of those obligations but chooses not to for whatever reason, then that is called fraud.
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Purism is far from bankruptcy.
I hope you say the same thing about almost all governments, including the ones enabled by you, because almost all of them, when they don’t have money, borrows more in the name of others.
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You might ask a Purism rep/moderator to enable editing the title again, if you do want to change the title.
I didn’t say they were. I said that the thing a business must legally do when it cannot pay its creditors is to file bankruptcy. This was in response to a hypothetical from a person trying to make a claim that a business having to choose between payroll and refunds was some sort of Sophie’s Choice and that isn’t true. If a business cannot pay its debts, it must file for bankruptcy.
I never said Purism was in that position, I said that if it were, that is what if must do. That is what EVERY business must do. You don’t get to put it off because you hope the next amount of cash will cover up. If you can’t pay your obligations as a business and you are unable to get another loan or line of credit, legally, you must file for bankruptcy. Bankruptcy != insolvency, btw, it could just mean that payment or business terms need to be restructured. But I never implied that was Purism’s position because I don’t know its financials (even though as a public benefit corp it is supposed to publish financial reports). Todd Weaver does love to send me invitations to make investments in his convertible notes (and lucky for him, I am actually an accredited investor, unlucky for him, I’m an accredited investor and would never invest in a company that offers as few details as Purism does with the terms and return Purism is offering), but I have no insight into their financials and won’t pretend to speculate.
What is not speculation is that Purism is not paying all of its creditors, because at least half a dozen people are in these forums complaining about months or years long delays on refunds. But that doesn’t mean that the company is bankrupt or anything close to it, it could just be a choice. In that case, it’s fraud, but only Purism knows for sure. Again, I won’t speculate. If there is another reason Purism is unable to make payments to creditors, it has a legal obligation to explain that to its creditors and work out an arrangement. It is not acceptable (or legal) to ignore the situation.
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Borrowing is obviously the most common way of paying one’s debts. Where did I imply otherwise? But that wasn’t what the poster I responded to suggested. They tried to create some stupid philosophical question about who you would pay, your employees or your creditors. The obvious answer, if you don’t have the funds, is to get a loan to pay both. In the absence of a loan, you must file for bankruptcy. In most cases, it is a reorganization and some creditors will forgive or expunge some of their debts or there will be a repayment plan. In cases where assets don’t match liabilities and a business is insolvent, then it becomes liquidated.
Sovereign debt crises are obviously many orders of magnitude larger than a middling consumer electronics company that for whatever reason, isn’t paying its creditors.
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Did you try to resell the phone? I saw people have purchased second hand Librem 5 phones?
This might sound odd, but I would have rather had Purism act honorably and lost my money through a bankruptcy, than to have received my phone (which I did recently receive), from a dis-honorable company. I have my phone now. But I can’t say that I feel good about its manufacturer.
If Purism would have said “we are on the verge of bankruptcy and need more money to keep the company alive” and asked for donations, I would have donated because I believe in the social purpose. But instead they acted as a sovereign entity, doing whatever dishonest acts they could get away with, to survive. As a social purpose company, these tactics are unacceptable, even when the alternative is to go bankrupt. I would have preferred to have a bankruptcy Judge make the financial decisions as soon as Purism became financially unhinged. The fact that Purism appears now to have beaten the odds isn’t a plus for them now as I see things, because they cheated their way to success. I don’t want to be a part of something that wins this way.
Imagine that you turn your car in to a shop for a transmission repair. A few days after you expected to have your car back, a friend of yours says they saw your car parked at a bar and the mechanic inside, having a good time. As various friends see your car around town, over the next few weeks, you can’t reach the mechanic. All you get is a message saying “leave a message”. Eventually, other people start reporting the same behavior as they took their vehicle to the same business for similar repairs, only to have agreements broken and their interests betrayed in ways that are obvious to them but that are difficult to prove. The common theme in every case is betrayal of trust and a creepy feeling of being lied to. Eventually you consider calling the police to get your car back. But you decide to go over to the shop one last time in attempts to get your car back. This time, both your car and the mechanic are there. When confronted with accusations that the mechanic has been using your car for weeks without your permission, he smiles and says “so you didn’t actually see me yourself, doing anything wrong, did you? You have no proof, only heresay. And I am offended that you would make such accusations”. Then he gives you your car back, fully repaired, a quality job. Would you go back there again, or recommend them to your friends? This isn’t a good way to run a business that wants to be in business for the long-term. The negative “good will” will eventually cost them everything and there will always be something for them to blame their unavoidable downfall on. Although this story about the transmission mechanic is fictitious, the way Purism has dealt with some of its customers are very similar. Inducements to get a potential customer make a purchase and that are not honored later are egregious acts of dishonesty. Not honoring federal statutes that govern credit card purchase refunds is potentially criminal and at the very least, is reprehensible. No ball and supply chain justification matters at that point.
So going forward, if I make any future purchases from Purism, it’ll be in spite of that bad feeling they left me with last time. I’ll look for other alternatives and quickly switch to Purism’s competitors as soon as a competitive product goes to market.
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An Solution to this Purism can solve this issue is issuing a preoder NFT and the user can tolerate any more they can sell it without affecting Purism cash flow to persue the ultimate freedom computer
Same story with my refund request. Never ever heard anything from them.
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Ordered: 2017-10-14
Asked for refund: 2021-10-18
Refunded: -
Phone received: -
EU customer (Germany)
Promised refunding in “late September” (2022)
Since then all the few months I’ll get an email “sorry, we cannot help you”, while I was in deed not asking for help - anyways.
Since 2023 I don’t even get any answers to my emails.
@chrizz Report them to the FTC, if you haven’t already. There’s a simple online assistant from the FTC for exactly that purpose and it works regardless of where you are from.
FTC’s claim:
Protecting America’s Consumers
Im located in Europe…
Thank you very much, I’ll try that!
The sad part of this story is that Purism is ignoring a large number of their customers (everyone who wants their promised refund). Purism has an obligation to satisfy these people’s valid claims right away in the normal course of doing business. When you’re wrong, you know that you are wrong. So you don’t have a valid position and you know it. Then when you know you’re wrong, instead of trying to justify yourself, you ignore and shut-out your accusers and all of their grievances. That is what Pirism is doing now. It’s extremely immoral. What these actions say is “what I want is more important to me than any valid rights that you may have”. This is often when people go to war or act in war-like ways as they see that the other side doesn’t even consider them human or even worth being treated as human. Purism is absolutely there now. They have been there all along. They don’t deserve to succeed for this reason. Unfortunately, even their stated social purpose doesn’t deserve to succeed under these conditions.
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Ok, lets place this to another view. In Germany for example you can have unpayed your workers for more than one month to put that in legal charge. Would you use that lever to make more money with that not booked money to have a bigger revenue on the financial spot market?
Sometimes the coast is lower if you just push phones to them instead send money back. Because a lawyer may told you, that in a small chance it could get viral that someone may will have interest and inflation compensation too for that time. And this is some sleeping dog, which you can not attend if you sell phones for the lower price from years before, because you will not have stress with your benevolent customers.
I am not sure why this is… right now as it is. But i am sure there are some reasons on the trade secret page of pur sm. And it have a reason.
However i think they will pay back, but not as soon as some likes to have. I would take the phone and sell it on the spot market, or private.
lolno in our digital information world i think there are many companies try to offend purism… because it sell solutions do digital natives, without making them to slaves. Its like a sin in the digital valley. In the 1980th it was a well for innovation. But we end up in this addicted world where we hide collected information and tuned behavior from the young eyes.
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No, you already can sell your position in the waiting Line for a Phone or the Device itself after receiving it. NFT is just a trash Word for an URL on a File on someones third Party Server, who just say its a “Non fungible Token”, but it isn’t.
god-future just wait a longer time and you will.
Edit: Its just a guess of myself. But i am sure, like they have to buy more cpus on the sport marked, the will pay back after some future earnings.
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But are they customers? They could be but if all they did is ordered the Librem 5 and then change their mind then they are not customers.
Could they be potential future customers? Well, I can’t prove that they won’t be but the rhetoric in this and similar topics suggests not.
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