I'm giving up on the Librem 5

Name an open source operating systems that’s more bug free and stable than a closed source operating system.

Are you nudging customers to accept a “bait-and-switch” business model? It seems to me that Purism should honor their refund policy. I truly don’t understand why anyone would do business with a company that doesn’t honor their refund policy — it’s a violation of trust and would seem double unacceptable given their current niche (tech privacy/security).


not recieved my money back as of yet. After a few emails saying as much and replies that things are a little slow right now that I would receive money back towards the end of the year.

In my country, this is called “being bankrupt.”

Failure to file for bankruptcy in due time is not only grounds for a lawsuit, usually with massive fines, where I live, but also a criminal offense. And that’s for the individuals responsible for the delayed filing, not for the company.

I really want Purism to succeed, but I feel they’re crossing yet another line here.



And that’s without going into the weeds on what constitutes a Linux operating system.

Edit, should probably have replied with a new thread. If you want to go into those weeds let’s do that by a reply either linked topic <3


I wanted to let you know how much I appreciated this comment. I’ve argued for over a year that it would be better for Purism to declare bankruptcy than it would to not properly adhere to their refund policy.

People in the US (and other countries) seem to not understand that bankruptcy is the proper legal solution to insolvency that has been designed to balance the needs of the company, creditors, and customers (past or present).


I don’t know how to link to a new thread, so I’m going to make one more “technically” off-topic reply.

I probably should have specified consumer operating systems. Barebones “server only” OSs such as OpenBSD don’t count because nobody would actually use them in everyday life. There’s no consumer programs available for it (not even common ones such as Libre Office or Mozilla Firefox), so naturally you’re not going to find many bugs when you’re running next to no software on it.

Show me a consumer OS that would be used by an “everyday Joe” that is more stable and bug free than Windows, Android, or MacOS/iOS; and then we can all have a good laugh. Until then, open source is a failed experiment.

Depends on which one of my jokes (above) are you responding to?

I’m nudging customers towards the sarcasm model.

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I think that Purism may be in way too deep (with the law) to bankrupt now and not face more then just losing their company. They’re “all in” on whatever they’ve already done.

Every bankruptcy eventually has what is called a “meeting of creditors”. At that meeting, the creditors could choose to not show up if they want to. In such a case, the Trustee and the judge do their part to discharge the debts. But… what happens if a creditor shows up st that meeting and makes a claim of fraud? An obvious case would be where someone falsified income information on a credit application. I am not saying that Purism did this. But such a circumstance would be grounds to not discharge that creditor’s debt as a part of the bankruptcy. I don’t know how the courts would react to blatant violations of Federal Trade Commission laws when refunds that are required to be given by statute, add up in to the millions of dollars as the company ignores the law and its own refund policy over a period of several years when they were essentially insolvent the whole time. It even gets worse if the company solicited and accepted financing from “un-qualified investors” (generally anyone with a net worth of less than one-million dollars is an un-qualified investor), to keep the whole scheme rolling the whole time. There are no “corporate vail” protections for the violation of criminal statutes. Corporations do not commit crimes. Only people commit crimes. If Todd stepped back and handed the corporate rains to Kyle and if Kyle did not immediately report any corporate crimes and file for bankruptcy if a bankruptcy should have been filed, then Kyle is on the hook also.

One violation leades to another. You barrow from Peter to pay Paul. You cover up your violations and repeat the process. Pretty soon, the consequences of what you’ve done are to big to consider accepting them if you think that an escape might exist if you can just keep the con going a little bit longer. Eventually, you’re Bernie Madoff. This happened to the former Governor of Arizona Fife Symington, after he was governor. He went to prison for bank fraud until his friend Bill Clinton, pardoned him for his crimes. So unless you’ve got friends in high places, the best way to stay out of a lot of trouble is to keep the letter of the law until you are incapable of doing so. Then you have to put your cards on the table or face serious consequences later.

In an up economy, Symington could have made enough money to pay his creditors and become fabulously wealthy at the same time and his crimes would have then gone un-detected. Instead, the Savings and Loan crisis exposed his crimes before he could cover them up. Whether it’s an untimely S&L crisis or a pandemic, the courts won’t care what your reasons are for not being able to pull-off crimes undetected. The ball and supply chain becomes just a personal ball and chain if you’ve broken the law.


Let’s also not forget how much government subsidy his companies get.

Linux Mint is very user friendly, doesn’t require console cowboy skills and is much more bulletproof than windows 10, I will argue that with anyone. My wife’s Window’s 10 box is a constant frustration, while my Linux Mint machine just keeps going and never dies.


Sarcasm detection skills in the “easily offended” era are becoming quite scarce. I am an aficionado of sarcasm and appreciate others efforts. I really think rubber feet and screws are highly underrated especially for those of us with OCD.

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I caught the joke at the end, but that doesn’t absolve the post. Adding a joke at the end of what was clearly a serious reply is a “Just Kidding Bro” kind of move.

I’ve used Linux since 1994 and hadn’t used Windows for a long time. However, I bought a $200 Thinkpad (5th gen Intel) with Windows 10 Pro on it 1.5 years ago. I was pleasantly surprised. It hasn’t been frustrating at all and some things have been relatively pleasant (powertoys, wsl2, Terminal+powershell, encryption, ssh and sftp installed by default, suspend and power management, …).

I’m not sure what you or your wife are doing wrong that you’ve found it to be a “constant frustration,” but with all the same anecdotal conclusions as you seem comfortable using I’m going to confidently conclude that it’s “user error”.

I use windows 10 at work as well and I’m not alone in my frustration trust me, but I’m sure it’s all user error, are you saying my wife is an idiot then?

It could be your wife. It could be you. Or you could consider whether or not you are truly “an aficionado of sarcasm” or whether you’re “easily offended” and can no longer detect sarcasm. All of these are possibilities. Remember:

Also, I should point out that my octogenarian mother doesn’t have any big issues with Windows 10 either. Maybe you and your workmates just get frustrated easily. Or maybe you’re part of that younger crowd that likes to complain about everything. Who knows?

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One can only detect sarcasm if there is sarcasm to be detected.

Are we creating a list of non-sequitur tautologies? Let me add some leading context to make it relevant:

A blind man says “one can’t see invisible things”.

A person who can’t detect sarcasm says “One can only detect sarcasm if there is sarcasm to be detected.”

These straw man statements aren’t helpful to anyone.

My wife’s Windows 8 box is also a constant frustration. But more the wife because she always asks “how to do something”. While telling her basic thing I say click, this, click that, pull down that thing, and the danger is she starts to think ahead, and I eventually say “Don’t click …”, too late.

And I use Linux Mint also on a 99 dollar stinkpad, so old it didn’t have a camera, had to get a USB one to have zoom meetings. Also ironclad never breaks.

By my real gem is my 30 year old HP3000. It only goes down in a neighborhood power failure. I just bought a replacement DLT drive for 120 bucks (it has two). Now I can perform two full backups using different methods on Sundays without swapping tapes. It runs old telnet games. You can telnet to it via empire.game-host.org. Cheap HP terminal emulators are so hard to find for linux however, there is one out there called QCTerm but it takes work to get it to run under Wine.


There are a small legion of those who went into this endeavour without the correct mind set. They didn’t realize that they were participating in joining David to take on Goliath or perhaps have never enjoyed participating in team sports where you sometimes sacrifice your own glory for that of the team. This simple fact and examining the minutia of statements made by Purism which is already at a huge disadvantage to make a new from the ground up device without the benefit of canned circuit blocks around blob infested chipsets, indicates that these people should have never stepped foot into this battle as they lack the cohones to do so. If you want a slick tracking device, stick with the main stream devices, if you want to know that you helped make your kids future a little less 1984 then drop the whiny BS and be supportive. I just don’t get it.


That brings back memories. I never saw the actual machine (we used dumb terminals). The power cost must be huge.

One of my first university programming classes (pascal) was on an HP3000 – and we were severely limited in disk space (had only 2 x 250MB washing machine sized disk drives shared amongst all the students that term). The terminals were primitive dumb terminals (ASCII, 80x25??) and the editor was a line editor. The other programming class I had that year (FORTRAN, WATFOR I think) used punch cards on an IBM-360 mainframe ( I also learned IBM assembler on that two years later … where it was an effort to simply carry the card decks ; you were lucky to get more than three compiles in a day).

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