Is it still opportune to collaborate with the GNOME Foundation?

Software PureOS
62

n00b question; then why even repeat the “joke/sarcasm” in the first place? Just “careless humor”?

I am sorry but I am going to have to “politely” disagree with you on this, that “joke/comment” from techrights has a context behind it, techrights made several posts about the person in question with several accusations, going to the point of making accusations related to him and his partner. It is not easy for me to see that comment as an isolated one time sarcasm thing.
But if you want (and I would personally prefer it even tough I have my share of the blame) we can leave this part at; to each their own

So what can be done to improve the GNOME community from this point onward in your opinion? Improve in what? And how?

63

@joao.azevedo

It seems that insisting on this point is of particular interest for you.

In all honesty I believe that what McGovern did goes way beyond what is admissible, not just for someone with his former role, but for any human being. I judge defamation as as cruel, unemphatic, cold, calculating, moved by the wrong reasons, coward, and so on.

Despite all this, the only reason why I mentioned TechRights’s rhetoric question about McGovern’s future is “just careless humor”. Or just an indirect way to express “happiness” for the fact that the guy will not do much further damage, at least not too much.

After that short mention I went on without involving McGovern. But now I am starting to wonder, why is my careless humor, even too gentle considering what happened, occupying so much of your attention?

I have no idea about other comments by TechRights about McGovern – although I might get an idea – and I am sorry if it goes beyond what it is. But that “joke”, especially when repeated by another person (me) remains what it is: an isolated joke, which, as I said above, is even too gentle after what happened. It does not fabricate facts about the present or the past, it only expresses disapproval in a way that can only be subjective: by doing forecasts and expressing skepticism.

Yes, because I think it will not bring good. The whole event trespassed (by miles) what is considered normal, and especially if you are involved – we all are in a way or another – it might be impossible to address it as strangers in a forum.

By bringing back the ideals, the philosophy, the moral motivations. I have the feeling that starting from the split with GNU, as GNU is mostly about principles, GNOME wakened its stance on principles only for the sake of not making GNU look right – even if GNOME and GNU agree on the same principles.

That has to stop. First because on the principles GNU is right. And second because without principles GNOME is dead. It will loose all the people and the enthusiasm. All the cool mood that accompanies the free software movement and its hackers must be preserved.

Second, a reflection must always accompany where we are and where we are going.

Third, unity is a worthy goal.

There are many things that can make the free software community grow. And in the worst scenario, not doing again the same mistakes can help a lot too.

64

To be honest, I simply do not understood why bring up the joke while at the same stating a few lines bellow that the object of the joke (the former GNOME Executive Director) does not matter.
Either something/someone matters and talk about it, or it does not matter and leave it alone. But talking about something while at the same time stating that that something does not matter, is really strange for me. That is one of my takes on life. Which does not have to be your take.

As for the content of the joke made by the techrights folks, like I said in my first reply; at best it is a rumor, and I do not like rumors.
And maybe my sense of humor is not as “careless” as yours. Again: “to each their own”

:man_shrugging:

It seems to me that here you speak of the free software culture as if it: should never evolve, should be preserved in time and always static

65

I thought that you might be referring to Marx, but my cursory search found Lenin to by the author. How would evoking either name be helpful or beneficial?

66

(This topic has gone in all directions and is probably rather unsuited to the “PureOS” category???)

I don’t know but: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.2753/CSP1097-1467250217

Marx predates Lenin by half a century. So Lenin could easily have been influenced by and quoting Marx.

Note that “criterion” is a singular word, while “criteria” is the corresponding plural. So regardless of who said it, in English it should “praxis is the criterion of truth”.

67

Got it, wondering if the guy who maintains a repository with a defamatory letter will end up working for Microsoft is not a question of interest for you. And, as I said, it is only marginally of interest for me (but marginally ≠ zero).

Will we be able to move on on this point?

I didn’t say that, nor think it. “Preserved” as in preserving its capacity to be productive, reinvent itself, avoid to kill itself.

Despite your easy arguing, my feeling is that the signals are dim but going in the right direction.

Also the GNU group is anything but a statical group, and has been in ferment ever since that letter came out. I still hope that GNU and the most open parts of the GNOME community will find ways to work together again.

From what I know there are not been any vindictive reactions from the GNU side. There hasn’t been a campaign to stop using the GTK libraries and switch to QT, or anything similar. That is because GNU is a wise group, whose main interest remains copyleft, free software and freedom in general, and they know that responsibilities are tied to specific persons but the community is something different, way more heterogenous, and in which the history of GNOME and GNU tend to merge.

68

I thought Praxis was the Klingon moon. If it is the criterion of truth, it explains why the Hollywood movie writers blew it up.

69

I am assuming that this is a question and (correct me if I am wrong) a somewhat veiled accusation. If: I do not care about what a “bad person” goes on to do next.

What I said in the several posts was basically:

  • I don’t like rumors
  • Let’s comment on that after it happens because until it actually does happen if it actually happens, it is nothing more than a rumor

That is kinda different of; “not a question of interest for you”

As for the “bad person” part and if the letter is defamatory or not. FYI I did not signed any of the two letters, the one for resignation and the one for support. And it was a deliberate choice.
I do not agree with everything on the resignation letter, but also do not agree with everything with the support letter.

I actually hope that we can. But it helps if we avoid what I consider (and again tell me if I am wrong) somewhat veiled accusations.

It’s not an question of “easy arguing” you were not clear in your post which leaves it open to interpretations. As does mentioning “the cool mood” that accompanies the Free Software movement without specifying what you mean, as it leaves what “cool mood” means to you as open to interpretation by others.

70

Praxis blowing up is the Hollywood Star Trek equivalent of the Chernobyl nuclear reactor explosion in the Soviet Union. Klingons in the movies were somewhat of a “comparison to the Soviets” in the Star Trek Universe. And that movie is basically the Star Trek metaphor for the end of the Cold War.

71

Well yes, I think we all got the main theme of the movie. I’m thinking what I just came up with was a mental Easter Egg. Just like they also come up with visual Easter Eggs in movies.

72

Somehow I would not be surprised if that was the case :smiley:

73

Well, if this is not easy arguing and splitting hairs, then I might not know what easy arguing means.

What could the interpretation of “cool mood” be? True it is open to interpretations. Let’s define it then.

  • Being proactive
  • Being optimistic
  • Do not compromise on principles
  • Being able to involve others
  • Having a clear schedule of what we want to accomplish – for me this means: most of the software used by people being copyleft-licensed and an internet that does not spy on fellow humans
  • Help others who promote the same principles

Feel free to add points if you wish.

74

So you are saying that I am splitting hairs while at the same time one line bellow agreeing with my point?

I can agree with any of those points, stated like that I can agree with them.

75

More about that here:

https://foundation.gnome.org/2022/02/16/forward-the-foundation/

That text goes on about McGovern’s “achievements” but at least it does not mention the “open letter” or anything about distancing GNOME from FSF or GNU or RMS or anything like that. I’m going to take that as a good sign, at least they are not proud of the whole “open letter” mess, and they do not signal that maximum hatred against RMS is their main criterion when looking for McGovern’s successor.

76

The feeling I get from reading that is that somehow they wish they can just forget that the whole mess ever happened. That is not completely negative, although it isn’t positive either.

Anyway, the whole text is quite self-referential. It’s basically all about “how cool the GNOME Foundation is” (it isn’t – GNOME is cool, the Foundation is bureaucracy, and a bureaucracy that has shown its malevolent sides; on the other hand, GNOME is just an object).

77

If that is the case then really sometimes that is the best approach. Still fighting yesterday’s battle is in some ways so negative.

And look, they even managed to throw an Asimov reference in there. :wink:

78

I definitely missed that one! :sweat_smile:

79

RMS should be lauded for the gift he has given to everyone working in this field - from Linix Torvalds, IBM & Red Had to Debian, PureOS and KDE. A gift totally unacknowledged and taken for granted (read stolen) by Linis and his Open Source Trojan Horse.

The referenced letter is clearly just another scurrilous attempt at stealing what RMS has already given for free, with wholly unsubstantiated accusations and meaningless troupes bandied about to cause excitement (and, succeeding…).

So called ‘cancel culture’ needs relegating to the same place from which its fore-bearer ‘political correctness’ came - the gutter. Really, isn’t ‘political correctness’ an oxymoron? (I thought the phrase a joke when I first heard it back in '88 - really, a joke.)

2 Likes
80

So you want to cancel the ‘cancel culture’ :P?

1 Like
81

Turnabout is fair play…