Please don’t overcomplicate it. Obviously, both phones need to be connected to a cell tower in order to make and receive calls. That is an implied prerequisite of all mobile phones ever, just like “the batteries of both phones must not be empty when attempting to make a call”.
Using a wireless connection as a fallback when no cell tower is available is a nice-to-have. I never had it, I never missed it.
Being able to connect with a network is an assumed (and obvious) prerequisite. Just like having your L5 charged and not having your L5 smashed with a hammer is. Are you going to Smash your L5 with a hammer and then complain that you cannot call any phone with a phone number despite the FAQ saying that you could?
Also the question that is 2 places below this one is “Will my existing SIM card work? What countries and networks will be supported?” which seems to address your issue of compatibility with networks.
First paragraph: almost useless.
Second paragraph: BINGO!!! Now you see what I’m saying. At the very end you read: “If you require an LTE band that is not supported by either of the modems, then LTE will not be available to you.” So I may face a situation not contemplated in the answer given to the question cited by me before. I insist that statement needs some work. Many of us may stop right there and someone may feel mislead in the end (wrongfully mislead I should say).
Anyway, it looks like the modem is going to cover a big deal of bands. I just hope they explain this as clear as possible so there’s no place for misunderstanding.
I really do not find the FAQ confusing. I immediately understood that the answer to the question about the compatibility with other phones was about compatibility with other phones and that for the answer about compatibility with networks I must look under the question that is about compatibility with networks.
Besides they can still call any phone number even if no network in their own area is supported because they can go to another area that has supported networks and then use those networks to call any phone number. The answer never says that they will be able to call from anywhere or without supported network. If someone assumed that was what was meant then that is their own fault for misinterpreting, made even more their fault by the fact that their misunderstanding is addressed clearly on the same page.
The only advice that I could give to such people is to read carefully and read a lot of the available information on something before deciding to spend money on it. Do not read half a FAQ, fill in the missing information with assumptions, and then buy something expensive based on that.
@Some_dude36 you can buy a SIM card from many drug-stores in the US and insert it into the Librem 5 phone you will have a phone number, voice, texting, and data. You can also get a SIM card from major carriers and in most cases it will “just work”. The community will likely create a nice Librem 5 works on x carrier. We aren’t in a position to test and certify all carrier choices at this time.
Google/Android can (and have historically) be anti-competitive, but because you can get a SIM and put it in the Librem 5 phone it makes it easy to know we have a long and growing future before us. There are some carriers that push phones tied to service, but most provide BYOD and just offer a SIM; they even in some cases don’t require the IMEI number (e.g. Verizon asks for IMEI, AT&T doesn’t) NOTE: IMEI is provided from settings and the modem on the Librem 5.
Todd.
I don’t think you are completely in the right - explaining how things work.
However, super pleased to have you here a d opportunity to talk directly ! '
Much appreciated.
I just recently moved back to Verizon, after terrible year w ATT.
To clarify or extend on your post here.
Even if not “asking for IMEI” ATT (just as Verizon) has a list of “approved” or “certified” devices that come factory unlocked.
When you snap in SIM into your phone it will read that IMEI and register it w the Carrier. Based on that reading you get your most important features enabled or disabled
What happened to me is that 2 of the phones capable of VoLTE didn’t have it work with ATT. What I mean is that phone was fine, until I needed to make a phone call over LTE and had bad to no signal on the fallback 3g or whatever was available in the area. That left me without working phone (home and work) - straight to voicemail, dropped calls , and also completely stranded on numerous occasions.
Ended up buying different phones to get them to work proper. With some phones that were not on the list yet, I was able to call ATT CS and ask for IMEI update and give them the obe that was certified or branded by them. With most it worked briefly and defaulted back with a few stayed enabled (VoLTE).
To my surprise, the list of approved devices was way bigger on Verizon than ATT.
So, Todd,
after all this said, my Question is
What are the chances that this phone will get on these lists ? I know it’s probably expensive and time consuming to deal w these carriers, but it’s extremely important for us who heavily depend on 4g LTE towers. Basically, can’t make it receive calls and SMS messages without VoLTE enabled (especially Verizon bc CDMA - fallback - is getting shut down in December)
We got Essential Phone on VZW list so that gave me hope that another small manufacturer can get it as well
Thanks
Of course, can’t thank you enough for taking on this enormous project.
According to this post:
with many phones you can get VOLTE to work by flashing the AT&t firmware and then calling and giving an IMEI that was AT&t branded. Wifi calling won’t work…
AT&T uses a whitelist of IMEIs to check against to determine if it will allow VOLTE and Wifi calling, if your phone is not on the whitelist, even with the AT&t software flashed, it won’t work (is blocked) even if the software option is there. As noted, you can call AT&T (after flashing the AT&T firmware) and have them provision a whitelisted IMEI of a carrier phone and get VOLTE to work. It seems for Wifi calling, it regularly checks against the IMEI, so that tends to only work for a few minutes, and will stop working again, even with the AT&T software if the phone’s IMEI is not whitelisted.
Sounds like AT&T requires proprietary firmware. 
Here is a list of the Verizon approved phones:
According to this thread, Verizon also requires proprietary software to use VoLTE.
Sounds like no VoLTE without binary blobs. I wonder if this is the case with all the cellular providers?
Based on my experience with both carriers you don’t need any kind of the software or firmware to flash on an unlocked device. As long as it’s not “black listed”
Though , for some you gotta call and ask for IMEI change. It’s also about first time sim activation.
If you activate a new sim card in certified phone swapping it with unlocked uncertified (but still whitelisted somehow) will have it work right away w VoLTE enabled. Some won’t work at all. I’ve I spent 3 hours with the tech rep trying to even get any signal through. I pulled IMEI from one pixel I had and it worked tech was very confused how I did (while on the phone).
To clarify ,
There are devices they physically took in and tested for certification and there some assumed to be working and kinda White listed. The rest are useless with their Sim cards. Data connection issues, SMS, etc. Some just won’t work at all
Only for wifi calling you need carriers software or firmware flashed and it’s still coin toss.
Some concrete examples
Keep in mind that I tried every trick w different sims on one carrier
ATT
Factory Unlocked
OG Moto X Moto X Pure, Moto Z Play , Moto Z2 play, Moto G5S, Sony XZ1 compact - no go for VoLTE (not certified - listed)
Moto Z3 Play, LG V30 plus - VoLTE enabled after IMEI changes over phone. (Not certified at the activation time)
Verizon
Factory Unlocked
Moto X Pure, Moto G5S, Moto G6 play (all certified list) - VoLTE enabled with no tricks , but with sim already activated (old)
Moto G7 Play (not certified at the time of activation) - enabled after IMEI update
LG V30 Plus (not certified) - enavbled after IMEI update
Moto Z2 force Att version (sim unlocked) - no connectivity at alll
I don’t live in the US, so I don’t have any experience with this, but from what I gathered from the AT&T thread that I linked to, the certified phones have the AT&T software preinstalled, which is why VoLTE starts working when people upgrade particular models to Android Pie because the upgrade includes the AT&T software. You probably had the software preinstalled in your phone when you changed the IMEI or activated the SIM. It sounds like it depends on several factors, but one of them is AT&T’s software.
I gather the same from the Verizon thread. People talk about installing Verizon software to get VoLTE working, so again I assume that the certified phones have this software preinstalled.
If software is a requirement of AT&T and Verizon, then the question is whether this software works in GNU/Linux.
It sounds like to me that we should be directing our questions to the cellular providers, asking them what are their technical requirements for VoLTE. Is their proprietary software a requirement or do they provide a way to use VoLTE without it? If they require proprietary software, then we should be working with the EFF to file complaints with the FCC.
I can see that. Makes sense
BUT, how do we explain the fact that all 3 devices I just brought over to Verizon were not on certified or supported list and I got them to have VoLTE work perfectly fine?
First , I entered their IMEI numbers (as requested) while in checking out process. For all 3 it showed “sorry, this device is not supported”. So, for each line I was porting over, I had to enter the IMEIs of those I had saved on paper which were on the approved list.
All these were confirmed again, this time by the CS rep, who said can’t see them listed.
And the official web page also didnt have them.
I would assume, that if they had this OEM install the software/firmware, it would be on the list.
Or perhaps, some OEMs do this pre-emptively but without the whole testing process to save money ?! That’s also possible.
Then, you wonder why Motorola wouldn’t do it for all it’s phones not just selected few.
When it comes to filing complaints w FCC or other agencies, it’s not gonna work.
Supposedly, some of these requirements are of the technical nature and part of regulation related to emergency calls… I saw few engineers talk about it.
Where will aftermarket tinker dev development be once L5 is released ? Here ? Or perhaps ubuntuforums or ??
I doubt that this forum will be the place since there are other forums exclusively for that purpose, but we might get some app developers for PureOS Store who use this forum.
It also depends on whether the Librem 5, PinePhone, ZeroPhone, or something else will attract more tinkerers. PINE64 seems to be doing more active outreach to the development communities and is marketing its phone as a device for tinkerers, whereas Purism has reached out to some communities, but its focus is clearly its own software development, and the Librem 5 is too expensive for most DIY hardware projects.
My guess is that people who want to play with the hardware are more likely to chose the PinePhone, but the Librem 5 has released the KiCAD schematics files under the GPL 3+ license, so it will attract some hardware tinkerers as well.
I predict that people who want to develop software are more likely to choose the Librem 5, because Purism will be setting up an app store to promote apps developed by the community. There will be people at postmarketOS, UBports, KDE Plasma Mobile, Maemo Leste, etc. who will adopt those two phones for their projects and the development will continue on their own forums. For those people, they are likely to spend more money for a Librem 5, because it has better hardware and they don’t want to deal with the binary blobs in the PinePhone, but it is hard to argue with the lower cost of the PinePhone.
Well I was more referring to say OS developers kinda like XDAdevelopers does for android .
What are the chances that this phone (Librem 5) will get on these lists (approved by carriers)?
There is .0% chance of being on a pre-approved list from major carriers before shipping. That percentage increases with each iteration and as time marches on. Primarily because as we grow the leverage grows. This is all part of the strategy and model.
Hi Todd , can’t wait for my L5 sir. I really hope your mobile endeavor succeeds.
Thank you for responding and honesty - making it super clear.
I’m wondering, if you would do some internal testing on major carriers and share it publicly. So, at least we get to see what features might work - such as VoLTE.
Thanks
Yes, as I wrote originally, we have tests from various carriers around the globe, but it’s not exhaustive. We have simply been testing the devkit on various networks and recording our findings. As we ramp up shipping devices we expect more and more field reports to a shared document or wiki. Flagging @david.boddie @heather.ellsworth @mladen to know this was asked (again).
Thanks. Much appreciated!
This FAQ should help: Will my existing SIM card work? What countries and networks will be supported?
This forum thread aims to collect information about carrier compatibility: Librem 5 carrier compatibility thread