Just Ordered a Google Pixil 6 Pro

[StevenR]

Almost three years ago, I ordered and paid for a Librem 5. My main disappointment is that more than two years later, I still don’t have it. The reasons/excuses offered by Purism really don’t matter because I still don’t have a Librem 5, regardless.

Five minutes ago, I ordered and paid for a Pixil 6 Pro phone from the enemy of privacy and respect of freedom, Google. That phone will arrive five days from now. When it arrives, I’ll put GrapheneOS on it. That’ll probably take a grand total of one-hour of my time. At that point, I’ll have the latest flagship model of one of the world’s most modern 5G phones. In addition, I’ll be completely anonymous and untraceable by Google or anyone else when using that phone. Problem solved.

Whatever Purism is really doing, it’s failing badly. Their endeavor is under funded and not in-line with modern business practices. Maybe some day things will be different for them. But that today is not today, nor is it likely to be in the near future. By the time I get my Librem 5 (if ever), It’ll be several years old technology in a very quickly growing world of technology. Maybe by then, my Pixil 6 Pro will be the equivalent of today’s 3g phones, while the librem 5 will be nearly useless at that point.

[Gavaudan]

@StevenR

not in-line with modern business practices

That’s sort of the whole point, isn’t it? If I drove a Flintstones car (not in-line with modern travel practices) everything involving it would take a lot longer. A silly metaphor, sure, but the principle is the same.

[StevenR]

Not in-line with modern business practices.

Instead of violating Securities and Exchange laws by taking investments from unqualified investors and not delivering products in a reasonable time frame, Purism should go public to finance a real product ramp. Yeah, Todd and Kyle would have to give up some stock. But what choice would you make? Would you rather be the President and CEO of the “Back Woods Hillbilly Oil Company”, or a Vice President at Exxon? I can see Jethro driving past the bank every day in his Flintstones car on his way to work, where he turns a crank all day by hand to get the oil out of the ground. No time to stop at that bank to ask for a loan to harvest that oil, we’ve got hard work to do today".

[JR-Fi]

I see what @StevenR wrote differently. For starters, the thread topic just seems like a tantrum and meaningless at a forum where I’d like to read on stuff related to L5 (with “I bought [insert random item here]” topics, there is the Round Table area - take these there). You bought something? Good for you. How about instead making an interesting thread that can be enjoyed while we wait?

How about an alternative, something more relatable: “Alternative phone while waiting - options?” or “FOSS phone development hurdles”? Even still Round Table stuff in my mind, but at least the any forum area would stay relevant (there are just too many rants in L5 in my opinion). And it’s not even original. Why not just add your say to the N number of others? There are some good points there to add to. Use search.

Sidetrack: the L5 area should be devided to “Pre Evergreen Speculation [historical archive not seen in searches]”, “Using and troubleshooting” and “Non-technical notes” to ease finding relevant threads. Maybe divide even more.

And about waiting? This can not come as a surprise at this point. As likely as a post like this - trashing Purism in rather unspecifically, once again (and let’s not pretend I haven’t critiqued them as well) - is to set them on fire and skip to you n the queue with speed and haste, isn’t it equally likely (in quantum terms) that one more of these is going to make you less likely to get your phone on time? Like a Shrödinger’s forum meltdown? I think it’s still option C --> /dev/null, or option D --> annoy some of the community. Like watching the kettle, time starts to stretch the more you anticipate and wait. Go read a book, or something.

And here I apologize in turn that I reacted thus to your reaction. Similar outbursts have been seen here before. It’s the cycle of waiting, the steps of grief - everyone goes though them one way or another. This is bargaining. This is personal and a sight that L5 has gotten to your feelings. I’d imagine rarely anyone is so invested in a fridge or a car that they go to another brand’s forum to say they bought someone else’s.

@StevenR

Whatever Purism is really doing, it’s failing badly. Their endeavor is under funded and not in-line with modern business practices. Maybe some day things will be different for them.

This is the point that actually is worth having a conversation (again, less relevant to L5 area, more for RT), although I do not agree. I thing this is a matter of expectations and managing them. You should know they are not Apple or Samsung. Doing small (is this small? it’s relative) is not the same as failing. Not by a long shot. This should be clear.

Business practices? I think those are more open to comments and have been hashed in several threads. What’s the new point on this? The product (L5 specifically, although PureOS and other stuff make the ecosystem) is a prototype (L5 is first of its kind, so not referring to Evergreen). Purismt seems to be trying to do the right thing - or at least more right than what’s available to general public from the MAMAA club (i.e. former FAANG). I wouldn’t use them as an example of how to do this but even doing things slowly - partly due to un-forceen and force majeure reasons - is still doing it. Not fast enough for your wants? That is unfortunate. I think some perspective is needed as most tech stuff seems to be delayed these days by bigger established companies. Yet, it seems that waiting times are coming down from 4 years to 3, possibly event to 2. That is progress. Has tech developed in the meantime? Of course! Do computers still become old the day they are turned on? Absolutely! Would L5 been more technically advanced (well, less far behind midrange spydevices sold) if it was fully ready and polished (which it is not… yet) and in use in 2019? Sure! BUT: Should L5 be directly compared to iOS and Android devices? Nope! It will be usable and relevant for longer and all the other stuff that comes with it.

And then, some day, some technical shift happens and all of them will get old regardless.

To add something new to this… Now that there is sizeable group in possession of these potentially magical devices, I’m concerned that annoying nitpicking amateur ruleslawyers may actually start to litigate and harass Purism for real, which will slow everything down even more and siphon money to legal fees. This would be away from development and actually getting important features to work. These are needed by those that have the device but also the future generations that will get the iMX9-based L6 (or L4, as I hope) which will actually be the holy grail (version 1.0.1). A bit unnerving. Maybe a proxy or useful fool of the MAMAA to sabotage the weakened (from extended timeframe) effort? Good way to saw division among the community too.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your new device - undoubtedly you needed some type of phone and it suited your risk profile with Graphene. That is how it’s supposed to work: use what works for you.

[carlosgonz]

@StevenR

Whatever Purism is really doing

Whatever if it is GrapheneOS or Calix OS or both together they will run on unsecurity blackbox phone(pixel 6 pro) so big brother it there on root space. Yes pixel 6 pro it Linux phone too.

[StevenR]

I don’t think the issue is about whether or not the Librem 5 is more secure than GraphineOS. Until a person actually receives their Librem 5, that question is only academic and completely irrelevant.

The real question of interest is whether or not GraphineOS is more secure and privacy oriented than the stock carrier phones that most people are buying and using, especially for those who have waited years now after paying for their Librem 5 that Purism isn’t shipping to them. By the time that Purism wakes up and starts operating like a real business, Google (ironically), will have met the market need for security and respect for privacy. Purism is asleep at the wheel and will miss the boat.

[carlosgonz]

@StevenR

The real question of interest is whether or not GraphineOS is more secure and privacy oriented than the stock carrier phones that most people are buying and using

I never used Android or android based OSes, but it should be better GraphineOS on user-space than stock carrier phones that most people are buying and using. One alternative while is wait for Librem 5 to arrive and based on gnu phones is Sony_Lena+Sailfish_4.4

@StevenR

especially for those who have waited years now after paying for their Librem 5 that Purism isn’t shipping to them

Sadly the process for getting ready the L5 to ship it is slow from factory to purism_labs then to user.

[StevenR]

I can say this about how Purism is currently doing business. My pre-order came with a “get your money back at any time if you change your mind” promise from Purism. Purism’s unilateral policy change months after I placed my pre-order does not apply to my pre-order. The legal statutes after even more than just a few weeks of non-delivery are far more strict, regardless of Purism’s policy.

After I have my new Pixil 6 Pro phone with GrapheneOS running as expected, I will politely and firmly ask Purism for a refund on my Librem 5 pre-order. If we have to get help from the Attorney’s General of several states to start the refunds coming back to those of us that want their refunds, then so be it. I might be the one to organize and mobilize that effort. At this point, even if Purism were to some day achieve their stated goals, it shouldn’t happen this way. Purism has lost any moral high ground as their lofty goals were long ago superceded by outright incompetence and dishonesty. That is not how business should be done. Perhaps I might be able to create a stampede of people who already want their refunds, backed by government enforcement. That might prove the actual point, regardless of whether or not Purism can survive it. If Myself and others lose our money, then so be it. That’s how all dishonest pyramid schemes end up.

And really… please don’t parrot Purism’s lame excuses, chief among them being the pandemic and supply chain issues. Librem 5’s were shipping in very small batches for about a year before the pandemic hit. There never was a product ramp-up as there should have been after the device was released. If Purism got paid every time they lied or made up yet another excuse, they wouldn’t be suffering from financial problems now. I don’t know they won’t start being more transparent, given that the ‘lie and conceal’ tactics have only made things worse for them.

[nimji]

I really liked Graphene on the Pixel 3a, sounds like you should have a good time with the 6 Pro.

If you don’t like it for some reason you can try CalxyOS (with or without MicroG) to get a similar experience albeit with less of a security focus.

https://calyxos.org/

Personally I really want to try /e/os as well as the Fairphone, but with the 3G shutdown, VoLTE requirements and IMEI restrictions for USA carriers I havent made the plunge.

I don’t have very many specific things Im trying to “solve” by trying to not use Google/iOS, I just want an alternative.

[JR-Fi]

@StevenR

will have met the market need for security and respect for privacy

Now this is a sentiment that I can get get behind, mostly. I’d expect it to come from others than G and I’d expect it to be superficial. But that sells to the masses and makes everyone feel good. In that regard, this has been played badly, as the momentum has not been used over the last few years. The effort was and is too small to have impact - in hindsight of course - to start any cascading avalanche effect. This is linear small market effort. But if that’s the safe path chosen… risks vs. rewards - not just for Purism/inverstors but to the community too. I guess the plan could be to get this version of secure linux phone done and then expand significantly with a more ambitious product and delivery to the early adopter crowd (as we are the bleeding edge [too]early adopters - and it occurs to me that not realizing what the difference is may have affected expectations). The thing you may be expecting could still happen… just not with this product and with us - and that’s not taking anything away from what has been achieved with L5. Only time will tell. Frustrating? Absolutely, if anyone has been waiting the security and safety revolution to happen yesterdayyear.

@StevenR

don’t parrot

I don’t need to. Just read the tech industry news. Have there been ridiculous snafus and tall tales? I concur and have said so. Communications efforts of Purism have been some of the worst (and the successes and positives come from individual efforts, which I applaud and thank). But the difference is, I put it mostly to columns “incompetence” and “lack of resources”. It’s irrelevant which came first and how these feed off of each other. I’m less inclined to file everything under “malice” like you seem to interpret. And interpretation is the key here. We’re mostly operating under minimal and missing information (speaking about that communication thing). I’m pretty certain (again, interpreting) that at this point Purism has mostly given up on communicating with community due to the uphill battle, there probably isn’t anyone capable and available for the job and some ego/embarrassment may prevent actually fixing this mess (opting to hope this all goes away in time after success comes - good luck with that strategy). Due to the ridiculously litigious nature of US (what I’ve learned from TV series), this may also be some expensive advice they’ve gotten for risk management (again, not the best approach in my mind, in this segment). Either way, not surprised given the comments. One way to (meta) interact, I suppose. [Btw. just realized, this seems very similar shouting at clouds than what people do with MAMAAs - Is that why it feels so jarring? Is this a Silicon Valley thing with tech companies?]

Anyway, my point is, the business side has not been great (and anyone definitely should get their money back - that is not in question), it’s probably not intentional. Miscalculation of development cost and time probably lead to a vicious cycle that other events made worse and prevented from getting back on course - I wait eagerly for the docuseries in 10 (or 20) years to see - or something as mundane. And now vicious punishment is sought, torches handed out and pitchforks sharpened? The disproportionate accusations and threats may feel nice (hey, it is the internet - I probably shouldn’t expect measured and mild) but just plain seem like trying to get some imaginary middle finger acknowledged and bad feelings vented … which, as I said, are all part of the steps and process. Should they succeed however, harm would be caused to others ,here and at large too, and they’d be destructive towards the actual efforts and anything good that has/will come of this.

[Hristo]

@carlosgonz

One alternative while is wait for Librem 5 to arrive and based on gnu phones is Sony_Lena+Sailfish_4.4

That’s really nice. Thank you for the info!
I had to choose a cell phone as a corporate phone recently and I picked up Sony Xperia 1. It is awesome that Sony don’t manufacture in PRC, they allow you to use other OS without having to “jailbreak” and with official Sailfish support this really sounds like one of the best deals on the market at the moment.

[amosbatto]

I try to take the long view when thinking about this problem. As I see it, AOSP derivatives (Calyx OS, /e/, GrapheneOS, LineageOS, etc) are always going to be dependent on Google, and Google can effectively kill them off simply by deciding to stop releasing some critical bits of AOSP under the Apache 2.0 license, and that might happen if AOSP security phones ever start to gain any significant market share that encroaches on Google’s territory.

As I see it, AOSP derivatives are the best choice for anyone who needs a functional privacy phone today, but I can’t see them ever being sold by the existing phone OEMs, due to the rules of the Open Handset Alliance, and licensing for Android and Google Web Services. AFAIK, phone OEMs that sell Android phones can’t also sell AOSP-derivative phones, because many of the derivatives would violate the Open Handset Alliance’s rules against using forks of Android, since they can’t pass the Android compliance tests. Google can also refuse to license its web services to phone OEMs, so they can’t afford to piss off Google.

Linux phones don’t face the same restrictions, so they might actually get adopted by phone OEMs, without threatening their existing Android sales. At this point, however, mobile Linux needs a lot of dev work, and the only companies willing to pay developers to work on mobile Linux are Purism and Jolla (and Blue Systems to a very limited extent). Jolla and its Sailfish OS will never go anywhere, which is why every phone OEM which has tried to market it, gave up after 2 models. I also don’t see any future for poorly-maintained oFono, which is why it was so important for Purism to pay for some critical bits to be added to ModemManager so it could be used for mobile telephony.

Sailfish OS is a dead end because the community will never embrace the proprietary Silica interface, and it is saddled with oFono. I honestly dont know how Jolla manages to stay in business. No company is going to want to use Tizen’s Flora license, and Samsung has given up on Tizen for mobile devices, so it is also a dead end. WebOS is no longer being developed for mobile devices, so LuneOS is also a dead end. Firefox OS is doing fine in proprietary KaiOS, but it is becoming another platform for Surveillance Capitalism with investment and apps from Google. Ubuntu Touch/Lomiri simply doesn’t have the volunteers at UBports to maintain its mountain of siloed code. That leaves us with just Plasma Mobile and Phosh as viable mobile interfaces, and it is clear from the PinePhone users survey by PINE64 that Phosh is doing better than Plasma Mobile because Purism is paying developers to work on it.

As much as I enjoy fiddling with the PinePhone, the fact that it is not getting support for its hardware added to the mainline Linux kernel illustrates the problems with relying on 100% volunteer labor. If we are serious about ever seeing mobile Linux ever become a viable alternative to Android/iOS, we need paid developers working on it, because critical libraries like libcamera don’t get developed on their own.

The hard question for people who pre-ordered the Librem 5 is whether they are willing to put up with the endless delays and poor business practices of Purism. The two dozen previous attempts at mobile Linux over the last two decades were business failures, so I don’t think it is fair to attribute all of Purism’s problems with the L5 to the company. Purism was facing very steep odds from the beginning, and frankly Purism made better technical decisions than its predecessors in my opinion. As I see it, Purism is the only realistic game in town to truly make mobile Linux a viable alternative, and I don’t see any benefit to driving it out of business, because the chance that another company will arise to take its place developing mobile Linux is next to nil.

The problem is that many who preordered the L5 didn’t sign up for the arduous jouney that is required to make mobile Linux a viable alternative. They signed up for the marketing of the L5 as a functional replacement for their existing smartphone. Purism needed a large number of pre-orders to pay for the development of the L5, because it wasn’t a corporation with deep pockets, so it needed crowd funding from the community, but it wouldn’t have raised much money if it had been more upfront in its marketing about the timeline and software development that was needed for mobile Linux.

As much as Purism’s marketing frustrates me, I understand why Purism did it. From the outside, it is impossible for me to know whether Purism was acting unethically or trying to avoid bankruptcy when it decided to retroactively change its refund policy and has kept delaying the repayment of refunds. All I can know for sure is that mobile Linux needs Purism’s dev work on Phoc, Phosh, Calls, Chatty, libhandy, libadwaita, libcamera, etc., and the quarter million lines of new code that Purism has created for the Librem 5 wouldn’t have happened with purely volunteer labor.

[Quarnero]

@Hristo

Sony don’t manufacture in PRC

Purism Librem 5 USA goes in this particular “category” as well (+ having advantage that it cannot be purchased from Amazon):

[Hristo]

@Quarnero

Purism Librem 5 USA goes in this particular “category” as well (+ having advantage that it cannot be purchased from Amazon):

Definitely. With the difference that regarding Sony Xperia 10 III:

1. You can have it today.
2. Costs 4 times less even with the 50€ Sailfish OS licence.
3. You can use most Android apps (at least that’s the Sailfish claim and it seems that the Jolla team works a lot in this direction, they have published a white paper on the topic).
4. You have better hardware specs.

Don’t get me wrong. I have both Sony Xperia and Librem 5. Librem 5 has some unique properties and I am a huge fan.
But for a lot of normal users Sony Xperia 10 III with Sailfish OS will already be a much more accessible and suitable solution and a huge improvement compared to Apple or Android. I would even say - choose both if you can. As at the moment Librem 5 is still not completely ready. And as a normal user will still need to use Android apps. So if you use Librem 5 you will most likely need a second device anyways.

[tracy]

I’m with Steve here, I got a new Android within the past year onn my son’s T-Mobile plan. I pay him cash 80 bucks a month for both my wife and I so, 40 bucks each, unlimited data. Another difference we walked into a brick and mortar store and got the new phones right away. I did it to spite Verizon, to this day Verizon sends me a monthly paper bill for zero dollars and zero cents.

I put in for an L5 in Spring 2019. If I never get it well, I’m only out 750 bucks.

On a side note, even Jethro let others pump his oil. We never saw the family visit the oil fields.

[carlosgonz]

@Hristo

50€ Sailfish OS licence

Just to add that the 50€ for license it is for AlienDalvik not for Sailfish.

@Hristo

You can use most Android apps (at least that’s the Sailfish claim and it seems that the Jolla team works a lot in this direction, they have published a white paper on the topic).

Absolutely. AlienDalvik it the best to run .apk apps outside Android. AlienDalvik it huge better than Anbox or Waydroid.

@Hristo

You have better hardware specs

Some controller on the xperia 10 II and III it is free hardware plus free software driver, like nfc controller, acceleration sensor combo.

Sailfish has the best Signal and Telegram client.
Sailfish has the best security and privacy apps. like sms/photo/file encrypted.
Sailfish has the best truly mobile interface. I now it is closed, and imho it good stay closed for some reason.
Sony Xperia 10 II or III it is a GNU+Linux mobile phone compared to the Linux Phone from Android & based.

And of course the GPL Librem 5 still huge better than all this related.

[StevenR]

I am glad to see that this thread has included a significant amount of valuable discussion. In the process of conducting the research that led to my purchase from Google, I also learned a lot and had one unconventional idea that could be productive if anyone were to try it.

So I’ll start with that unconventional idea first. Perhaps the best way to punish an opensource company who takes your money and years later you still have nothing, is to beat them at their own game. Give me a schematic, a bill of materials, a real Librem 5 (buy a used one if necessary), and a few months, and I’ll lay out my own Librem 5 board, produce Gerber files, and order my own Librem 5 boards. Granted, getting the case and some custom-made and hard-to-find components wouldn’t be easy. But ultimately, a copycat Librem 5 could be produced in-mass by someone else with some business sence and access to money (probably a hundred thousand dollars minimum), and the critical talent to build a real business. The right talent pool could execute a huge manufacturing ramp-up successfully. You probably couldn’t call your product a “Librem 5” at that point. But you could sell millions of them and give Purism nothing in return. There would be almost zero development costs. If Purism is willing to pay for most of Pine Phone’s software R&D, why not let Purism pay all of the development costs for a knockoff version of the Librem 5 also? Without any intellectual property rights involved, no one could stop such an endeavor. If thousands of people are getting quality product Librem 5 knockoffs in less than two weeks from their order date, and if Purism still has a three year queue at that point, then no one would ever choose to order their phone from Purism after that. Just a thought. But for the right combination of talented people, totally feasible. Someone like myself could copy the board. Possibly another person could acquire the case and components. Perhaps another person would build the business and manufacturing plans and obtain financing. Almost 100% of the money would go towards manufacturing in large quantities.

I also wanted to share some of my research about secure AOSP Android phones here too. The logic behind the arguements below is what prompted me to buy the Pixil 6 Pro with a plan to run GrapheneOS on it. Feel free to disagree with me here if you have better information. A secure and free phone should:

1.) Not be rooted for non-developer use: Although the carriers all abuse their customers, making everyone desire to have root access on their own phones, an ethical operating system causes little or no need for the average user to root their own phone, thus exposing the phone to significant Security risks, even if a safe rooting method were to be used. App and OS developers should not leave their phones rooted when not doing development work and not at all if not necessary for software development work.
2.) Keep the boot sector locked: A safe boot sector should be kept locked at all times, except when temporarily unlocked by the owner to allow operating systems to be added and removed to/from the phone, before re-locking it immediately afterward. Phone owner’s should always have access to unlock and re-lock the boot sectors on their own phones.
3.) Not use an OS that requires open root access to function normally: Any phone OS that requires perpetual root access or a perpetually unlocked boot sector (LineageOS?, PostmarketOS?) to function properly is not secure.
4.) Not run MicroG: Many Google Apps will run and share information with Google, whether or not MicroG is installed on the phone. Only an app sandbox (with full permissions control) and not installing snooping apps are reliable methods to keep a phone secure.

When I found the GrapheneOS/Pixil combination in light of the above information, I didn’t hesitate to purchase it. Hopefully these thoughts are of value here.

[Hristo]

Thank you for the input.
I just don’t feel it right to buy from Google in order to avoid Google. This raises a huge red flag to me.
There is a reason why Purism decided to start with the hardware itself. They could have been yet another project for building an OS for a top tier smartphone from another company.
But the hardware is part of the game and I see no reason to trust Google hardware if you don’t trust Google software.
And in addition since 24.02.2022 I am avoiding electronics made in PRC because I firmly believe that no country in the world shoud have such a large portion of the market. We need diversification of the electronics supply as soon as possible. Only when PRC drops to less than 20% of the world supply I will calm down again. Monopoly is really a bad thing. Continuing with the PRC Google monopoly - no, thank you. I don’t want to just “hope” that they will not abuse their monopoly power. It is better if they are forced to behave well by the market. You do something wrong and the customers go somewhere else. This is possible only if the customers have somewhere to go. And the dare situation that you are forced to go Google in order to get a decent secure smartphone is exactly the proof that we have a huge problem and we need to act now.

[dr_t]

I’ll join your group if you make an organized effort to go via Attorneys General etc.

I paid for my phone in 2019 when it was advertised as an ORDER with a 6 month lead time. It’s more than 2 years behind schedule - i.e. not “I’ve been waiting for my order for 2 years” but “it’s 2 years after the latest point in time I was told my order would delivered, after an already long contractually agreed lead time”.

It then turned out Purism was using Chinese components - talk about running things on a spyware black box - which means their advertising of a “privacy” product was false.

Frankly I have no trust in the company any more as they have lied and lied repeatedly and engaged in other dishonest and arguably unlawful practices. By the way they also censor posts and shut down forums which tell the truth - hardly indicative of a company that believes in freedom/privacy/opposes the woke approach of censorship, spying, etc.

So I don’t believe that the product they will deliver - if they ever deliver it, or even intend to deliver it - will be anything like what they claim it to be. I wouldn’t even be surprised if they were a woke tech/intelligence shill operation intended to distract those who would genuinely like to build or buy a privacy-focussed communications device. Considering how much unlawful stuff they’ve done (such as collecting investments from non-qualified investors, purporting to retroactively change order contractual terms, then lying about it, etc.) even if originally that’s not what they were, surely law enforcement and/or dark forces now have enough on them to make them do what they want.

I’m working on the assumption that the amount I paid for my order was taken on false pretences and I have been wilfully defrauded and that if I ever do receive my handset (which I believe I won’t), then it won’t be trustworthy and won’t do what it’s supposed to do.

But I just have too many other, bigger, fish to fry. So if you do organize an AG-led effort, do please let me know and please include me.

[nimji]

I does feel weird, though I have seen reasons why the Pixel product line is specifically used by these security focused Android flavors (a large part I believe is also due to the ability to be bootloader unlocked and rooted if need be).

GrapheneOS Frequently Asked Questions

For the US market there are even more limited options than other countries depending on your mobile needs, so Im sure that also plays a roll. Not that this solves anything, just commenting with some details.