Specific examples do not prove (or disprove) this theory. Of course some lines can stay hidden inside the millions of LoC, even if they are accessible to everyone. However, in addition to that, if you care about security, you can make a crowd-funded, independent security audit.
So you don’t have to trust, you can and should verify, but not everyone is capable of that and things slip through so you can crowd fund an independent security audit, that you don’t actually know is independent since those independent people may have already reviewed the code, found something, and chosen not to disclose; on top of that you would be trusting the people performing the audit, so we’re back to the original point of having to trust.
On top of that, in the case of PureOS you have to trust that Purism is making the correct choices when merging/not merging requests.
With all of that said, and to circle back a bit closer to the original topic,
You don’t have to run their software and you can review the hardware more easily than the majority of their competitors making it so you don’t have to trust Purism for privacy/security you only have to trust that they will provide goods for funds which they do seem to eventually accomplish. If your timeline doesn’t permit allowing for an irregular and unknowable timeline then I wouldn’t recommend any Purism product currently. Maybe in the future they’ll get ahead of their fulfillment issues, but for now that is an issue they are struggling with. And communication is not their strong suit.
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Yes, we indeed need some trust in the end, but it’s an entirely different situation, when you are trusting a large number of independent entities and random people, instead of trusting a single company (as it is typical). And you can verify to some degree.
I in principle agree with your last points.
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OP, did you ever get your refund?
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They don’t have all the money and in a custody account like they should readily able to refund every order that is waiting to ship. This is a Ponzi, they need new orders to pay for old orders since they used the old orders to fund operations or something else. Too many complaints about orders, warranties , you name it. I would start your lawsuit and create a website (Libremlawsuit.com)
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Hi everyone, coming here to share my refund nightmare too. I submitted an order for a Librem 14 in April 2021 with the expectation it’d ship in June 2021 (at least according to their website at the time, which was a bold-faced lie). I made it explicit if I didn’t have shipping details by November I’d cancel my order. I followed through and all the sudden when I requested my refund the first week of November, my shipment would magically be ready in a week! What a joke, stringing the customer along only to dangle a possibility in my face when I had been pushed over the edge.
After back-and-forth with support, they informed me they’d refund me in May 2022. Over a full year since I gave them over two thousand dollars for a laptop I never received. Reached out to support this past Monday and still no word on my refund.
I’ll note I bought a System76 laptop on November 3, 2021. Literally within 10 minutes of submitting my order, one of their support reps (a real person, not automated!) called me to inform me my order was processed and if I had any questions. Two days later the Lemur Pro was on my doorstep in Boston, shipping from Denver. I highly recommend System76 if you’re looking for a Linux laptop, as their support and efficiency is like night-and-day compared to Purism.
I’m interested in joining any legal effort to hold Purism accountable.
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I assume I’m reading correctly.
If I order a V14 today there is NO guarantee of prompt delivery as the website suggests?
I find this laptop stuff incredibly difficult to follow. I haven’t checked for a little while, but aren’t they saying that they are effectively in stock?
According to the availability chart on the following blog post (which I believe may be the most recent one), the Librem 14 has a “status” of “in stock” and a “lead time” of 10 days. Good luck trying to figure out why it takes more than 2-3 business days to ship something that is truly “in stock.”
It has to be configured (RAM, SSD, etc).
I work in IT. I know how long it takes to install an SSD and RAM and install an OS. It’d probably take at maximum 60 minutes (probably closer to 15 minutes) for the hardware and 1-4 hours for a base OS install.
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FWIW there were conversations from Purism around the time of this post https://puri.sm/posts/year-end-update-for-2021-looking-forward-to-2022/ where the claim was that they were moving from JIT manufacturering and would hold stock including plans to hold pre-configured systems with the most common configurations.
I think there were even explicit mentions of pre-imaging the drives so that there wouldn’t be a need to manually install the OS for each system.
5 months into 2022 and this was supposed to be in place “Starting the first week of 2022 the Librem 14 will use this new approach” I think it’s very reasonable to expect faster turn around times than 10 days. 2-3 is relatively standard for most online businesses that keep stock in this manner.
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It’s possible the website is honest but I’ve no way to tell. Boils down to the fact if you have to cancel your order, Purism will just hold on to your money and not refund you. I’m a fan of the company’s mission and the Librem 14, but everything else about my experience with Purism has undoubtedly been worse than any other technology business I’ve bought a product from.
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On another note - the support team got back to me and said now my refund is slated for Q3 2022, pushed back from a previous May 2022 estimate. Literally can’t trust Purism to do anything right - they must be on the verge of bankruptcy if they can’t give me back $2000.
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That also doesn’t bode well for shipping dates.
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The next nine days are for quality control.
Please pm to swap emails. Have a idea.
Here is my opinion of Purism’s internal refund policy. I say internal, because they don’t publish this policy. If you get your state’s Attorney General involved or find another real and significant legal threat to them, Purism will send you a prompt refund once they understand that the threat to them is real and credible. People on this forum who did get their refunds all used this method by getting the applicable government authorities involved. That works and it’s free. But it’ll put you to work finding the best method for your local area. I wouldn’t waste money on attorneys. A good Attorney will charge you more than $600 for your initial office visit.
Based on Purism’s published refund policy, this internal policy is absolutely terrible. It’s immoral and illegal per federal US law if you used a credit card to make the purchase.
I don’t like doing business with immoral people. But I am probably two months away from getting my Librem 5. It’s not worth it to me to fight for the refund at this point, considering the likelihood that I will get my Librem 5, probably at least within 2023, if not before July. If Purism does succeed long term as a business, I still maintain that they are dishonest, even if I eventually get my phone. They also changed their refund policy retroactively after I placed my order in 2019.
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Yeah. You seem to have confirmed what I already suspected. I should have read all posts about refunds before committing. As they say “caveat emptor”. It sounds like the AGs won’t help anyone that ordered outside the U.S., as is my case.
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Hi Sharon, any news on your refund? They have my phone since August 2022 and so far now in April 2023 I have not received my money back either. There are other threads on this subject and so far Purism is keeping silent on it. The only intervention ever was so delete a post where some where organising together for legal action.
The policy now, as I understand it, is no refunds after 30 days. I haven’t read the updated version. Copy of email
The return window is 30 days, and from what I can see your order has been delivered in January so we can’t accept a return for refund, but if you’re experiencing an issue, please let me know so we can assist, thank you.
I can understand that. But if the key-holder says they’re closed, then they’re closed. I’m moving on.
You asking made me look through a lot of email, and posts and discovered just how much this has cost in time alone, and for the volunteers here as well.
Frankly, I don’t think I want a refund now. Several posts indicate that by the time I get a refund a cup of tea will be $1k. 
I’ve gone through some litigation on behalf of clients. The old saying sums it up:
You may sue anyone any time for any reason. Winning is another story, and in the end, the only winners are the lawyers.
For me, not all is bad. Though my request for refund is out-dated, and giving credit when it’s due,
the people at support@purui.sm did offer to review my issues to see if they could help
Good luck @ShimmeringLight,
Do stay in touch re your adventure,
~s
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