I suggest you look up the word synonyms, then you’ll understand the sentence that I wrote.
“A synonym is a word, morpheme, or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word,”
then when you go back to the definition of “a few” and look at the synonyms.
Honestly, when I said we could use the dictionary as an authoritative source on language, I really wasn’t expecting to need to explain “how” to use the dictionary.
Thanks, I know how to use the dictionary. But you should learn how to use synonyms. They do not necessarily have exactly the same meaning, as your own quote confirms. Be careful when you replace one synonym with another, the meaning may change.
It’s looking like this thread might be getting close to running its course, as now we are in a loop about semantics.
I’ve heard people’s suggestions and arguments for alternatives. As I said before, I still feel that the most accurate estimate at the moment, based on the information I have, is “in a few months” and while I appreciate the suggestions, I don’t believe the alternatives people proposed are an improvement for reasons I’ve already explained. I’ve also stated my personal impression on what “few” means, which seems corroborated by some, but not all people in the thread. Words, especially vague words used to describe a variable amount like “some,” “many,” “more,” and “few” are like that.
When we get to a point where I can make a better estimate (which I hope to be able to soon), I’ll update it. Until then you can choose or not choose to believe me when I say that the estimate is what it is, based on our thoughtful best efforts.
Seriously? Of course people ordering today WILL NOT get it a few months. Get real for once and get rid of it from your website. Stop the tedious semantics.
I truly despair at this bullshit.
Do you have some information which Purism employees don’t? When do you think those people get their phones and why?
You will get your phone in the fullness of time.
There’s nothing any of us can do or say to change that, aside from cancelling our orders.
This is the nature of back orders. When you back order something the company is out of inventory and you’re left waiting until they have some available. There’s usually good reasons why it’s on back order; making it hard to estimate when you’ll get one.
Will a hurricane hit the factory working on it, stopping production?
Will a new supply chain issue block things?
Will bob crash the forklift holding a large amount of the inventory?
The truth of the matter is no one knows, and we won’t know until one arrives on our doorstep when it will come. The further in the future the harder to predict, and this is a large order for Purism. Doesn’t matter what they say or do not say. What are we hoping to accomplish with this discussion?
Edit: Some food for thought. I don’t think I have ever received an item on back order from anyone at the time they estimated. It’s either before or after that time (usually considerably before or after). So really the estimate you’re getting in my experience is when you WON’T get it. I have not ordered anything from purism before this, so this doesn’t reflect on them in the positive or negative.
They’re just trying to give you their best guess.
I believe it has become in many cases a proxy issue for the frustration people themselves feel at the delays that have happened since they ordered, that have pushed their own date back. People are both empathizing with others who might be ordering in the future, as well as venting their own past frustrations.
Most people don’t have experience with hardware projects like this where someone is building something from scratch, and since most companies make new products in the dark, all of their disappointments, difficulties, and delays are hidden, so there are few opportunities for people outside of hardware companies to peek behind the scenes at just how difficult this sort of thing is, and how challenging it can be to make predictions, and just how many things can disrupt plans.
It’s frustrating for us at Purism each time something happens, and we are in this business so we already know unexpected delays are a possibility even if we have no way of knowing what they will be, if they will happen, or if so, how they would affect a timeline in advance (sometimes we’ve been able to absorb problems that would otherwise cause delays). So if you aren’t in this field, I can understand why getting an inside view like this perhaps for the first time, with all the bumps along the way, would be even more frustrating since it wasn’t something you expected.
Even though it has zero effect on when someone will get their phone (we are already trying to get to shipping parity as fast as we can, it’s incredibly important to us), venting these frustrations does has value up to a point. People can share their frustrations and feel that they aren’t alone in them. It does become problematic when it veers from that into personal attacks, name calling, or conspiracies, just because that can be pretty demotivating for folks here who are working hard to make this happen.
Sigh. Fine.
Dictionary or thesaurus? But since you brought it up, your authoritative source says “few” is “not many but more than one,” which, as has been stated is ambiguous, and to argue its meaning is foolishness, quite honestly.
This is the 3rd definition. Perhaps you don’t know how dictionaries rank their definitions, but the order is based upon commonality. As stated before, “lie” implies an intent to deceive, which is what the first and second definitions state:
That is an interpretation.
I won’t argue that the wording has changed, but it being a lie is a (mis)interpretation.
Misinterpretation.
Misinterpretation.
I’m sure it’s factual that more than one person has stated that, maybe even verbatim, but it’s irrelevant to this discussion.
Since we’re nitpicking, I’d call this “truth.”
This is quite ironic since I’m the one who presented a complete defintion of the term I’m arguing, whereas you omitted the first two, more-relevant defnitions of that same term when making your argument. Further, I’m the one who demanded facts in the first place. I really don’t understand this question.
This assumes knowledge that the statement became inaccurate, for which you have no evidence. Thus, I find it safer to label it “an oversight.”’
Correct! And yet here you are.
So… yes. I want facts. Clear, accurate, legitimate, unbiased statements of truth.
I still have a long wait… 
As another point of comparison anyone tried getting a “mass produced” PlayStation 5 recently?
And Sony are a little bigger than Purism…
Or a GPU, or some flagship phones, Intel/AMD CPUs, Xbox… There is a worldwide electronics shortage. But some people apparently only see it in Purism.
Not to nitpick too much but the latest update (and Kyle in this thread mentions it again) how those chipset shortages have not impacted the current production of the preorders/orders.
Definitely agree to keep the current conditions in mind, but unless something has changed since that post they’re not relevant (yet) for the Librem 5 production.
Edit: If I was a new customer I’d be more concerned than if I was already a backer with an original 2017/2018 order date
Much, much, much, much, much, much harder…
That’s a fat load of bull Kyle.
people aren’t frustrated because they don’t know how to run a business, or don’t know about ordering/delivery lead times or complex projects. (some of us literally work on or run complex project as a job!) -people are frustrated with the companies shady practices. that the company leaves up public statements and schedule information that they know isn’t true or they can’t keep.
you’ve said many times in this thread you can’t and won’t guarantee that phones will be shipping in a few months. unless you stretch the definition of words past breaking point. you’re talking about a few months turning into a full year! (fine there has been a problem)
Yet you still are promising this to new customers who are signing up for your devices. front and fucking centre in the shop page, ORDER NOW GET IT IN A FEW MONTHS.
You KNOW that isn’t true!
(so now, it’s not “fine there has been a problem”, because the problem happened before I bought, but I wasn’t told there were problems before I bought, I just read the misinformation in the shop and thought ok, great.)
Sure, I get it, it’s a bit of a downer when you work hard for a company and make good products, and people keep saying “hey man that advertising is kinda shady it promised a bunch of things that you just aren’t possible” “hey man the thing, that you said…” “where is my thing” “why delayed again”
but you know what would fix that?
Removing the shady advertising! --that’s in YOUR power, YOU can make sure this mess never happens again, YOU can make sure the developers don’t have to listen to whining little bitches gripping about false promises that are literally still being made as I type this sentence!!
Purism left promises on the sales page that told me, and others that our phones were a few months away. after parting with my cold-hard cash I find out that all the time scales were kind of a wrong, there were problems and delays and there had been for almost a month before I ordered.
I have a right to be angry and ask “hey man what the fuck?” - I was lied to!
but when you are faced with the consequences of gaining customers with misleading statements and over optimism you then start with the, “it’s not my fault you don’t understand business”…
Fucking speechless…
Actually my source was the oxford English dictionary. - which has definitions and synonyms included with the definition… so yes, a few, more than one, three or four are all synonyms. -you know what isn’t included in the synonyms, “nine to twelve.”
regardless of what dictionary (or clever dinosaur) you wish to use, I’m pretty sure none are describing “a few” as double digit numbers. --happy to be proven wrong here.
sigh… … sigh again … ALL THE DEINIITIONS PRESENTED ARE THE MEANING OF THE WORD!
this is exactly what I meant when I said I didn’t think I’d need to explain how to use the dictionary.
It is not the case that only the first definition is true and that’s it.
The first definition says there needs to be intent, (so you can’t say that is true or false without knowing the intent.) it doesn’t mean that you can’t lie without intent…
When I said that they lie, a lie is simply an untrue statement… that’s a perfectly valid and common use.
Anyway, as time goes on, I’m inclined to believe that Purism might have some intent with these false statements, making people think it’s right around the corner so they keep getting new buyers…
(but this is a fools errand** - more at the end)
Really? so if I tell you something I know isn’t true, you call that “truth”?!
So if I say the Sky is red. - you say true?
but if I say the sky is azure you’d say I was lying because it’s not a Microsoft cloud platform, (the most commonly held definition now… - rather than meaning a shade sky blue - why the platform is called that!)
I’m done with the definition of words, if you want to take a literal description of a lie and call it the truth then the only thing I can suggest is you don’t want to have a reasonable conversation, you’re just here to mess about. (probably bored whilst waiting for your phone.)
.
**Now, you might think why is this a fools errand…
Well, as I said earlier, I’ve seen this kind of situation play out before. companies feel they are right there and this thing will be out soon so they start advertising, cool new thing… (in this case a phone, but when I saw this before it was a 3d printer) so people bought, (same thing as this, buy now and we’ll make it for you…), and they get more orders than they can make. and orders get delayed, and bullshitting customers is easier than fessing up that you’re in over your head, and soon the refund requests come, and then the credit charge backs where people claim refunds from their banks and credit cards insurance policies. and then the payment processor company has banks knocking at their door saying that money is owed, and then the shop (e.g. stripe) start knocking at your door, Or they just stop your fund processing completely…
I found out the 3d printer company went bust when I went to order a replacement part from their shop, and my card was frozen and I got a text message saying that my card was blocked because it was used on a site with a high risk of fraud.
You know what happened next -with no sales, no money, potential customers being told by banking institutions that they won’t process transactions as they are likely fraudulent. and a reputation as a scammer…?
the business went bust and forty odd people in Brooklyn were out searching for a new job.
Fix your communication problems, before it ruins you!
On the plus side …
This is definitely true. I’ve had more tech orders from other companies delayed in the last year than in the previous ten years.
Everyone can foresee that COVID has had, is having and will have (negative) effects. It is more difficult though to quantify those effects, which is what we are asking Purism to do in providing an accurate shipping estimate.
On the minus side …
I remain unconvinced that “a few months” is a reasonable description.
Actually, a dictionary will show you that there are multiple meanings. It doesn’t mean all are necessarily true at the same time. People understand language differently, and language is complex.
If you want to accuse others of being dishonest, or of not being fully honest, then next time post all definitions in the link you reference, or indicate there “this is one definition”, rather than trying to create the impression that there is only one.
Otherwise, you are not being fully honest, which is what you are accusing others of.
EDIT: I mentioned in another thread how news organizations try to manipulate people. And one of the main ways to do so is by leaving out relevant information. You could maybe accuse Purism of that in the past (they seem to be trying harder to communicate now). But only showing the definition that helps you and not mentioning those that don’t, is doing the same thing. Trying to misinform and manipulate by not giving all relevant information.
or speculations raised by concerned customers. Why do you complain about that instead of properly inform them?
I was completely ignored by you or other representatives on this forum whenever I raised my concerns about the lack of FCC/CE certifications for Evergreen, and how, in my mind, that is affecting the production and placing of the product on the market - this speculation part is based on what I see as reliable information found online.
My conspiracy theory is that Purism is intentionally deceiving new customers by actively hiding (under the rug) important facts about their products and processes, facts that are necessary for customers to make an informed decision when ordering a product. I requested on this forum that the real status of a product to be available on its product page (not buried in issue trackers or forum comments). I requested information about the number of delivered devices - we’re already guessing them, why don’t you make it official, at least until your backlog is delivered?
Recently I came to the conclusion that I was deceived by Purism when I ordered the Librem 5 back in 2018. I’m locked in since then, waiting for it and not much to do about it. I consider that Purism is doing the same tactics of deceiving even today, for the new customers, and that’s infuriating!
So why don’t you and the Purism SPC stop sabotaging their work? Hmm?
I believe all the arguments have been hashed out, all the semantics been discussed. No opinions been changed. It is clear that – we like it or not – forum posts like these are not going to change wordings on Puri.sm’s shop websites. So I suggest we let this rest now, you 1) wait for your orders patiently and suffer through the time, you 2) request your money back and fight it out in private with puri.sm or 3) you take your grieve to some other place where you can support jaylittle in his arguments. I am tired of seeing the same arguments being discussed over and over here. (I think, I have found the thread-mute button though :))
Also, while discussions about the semantic meaning of words can be interesting, I don’t find them appropriate or meaningful here. I have seen them too oftern (I am many months old :-)) and don’t find them very enlightening! Pitch your dictionaries against each other in some lingo-forum.
“Many” or “a few”?
Sorry, could not resist… 
You are forgiven, I was begging for it 