Purism - if you are open company stop deleting the comments. Lets people to share their views. Stop acting like Facebook

Hardware
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Let’s keep this topic for your complaint about Purism customers flagging your comments.

Let’s keep the original topic(s) for your complaint about the non-delivery of your product. (You are by no means unique in that regard. You can pick your topic to add to.)

Regardless of the legitimacy of any complaint that you have - there is a good way to express it and a bad way to express it. If a new forum user is this crazy guy who bursts in, yelling and shouting and throwing things (to borrow from @Dwaff), can you understand that that will be perceived by many Purism customers as a bad way to express it?

If I ran Purism, your forum account would have been closed. Simples. Lucky for you I am just a humble Purism customer.

I see that Purism has suspended your account.

This topic would appear to be in the wrong category.

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Perhaps in this hedomi’s case it can be attributed to this, but generally speaking, it’s a bit more complicated than that. At some point the website said that you could cancel your preorder at any time for a full refund. Later they changed this, so that you could only cancel when it was your turn in the queue. That’s all fine and well; a company is allowed to change its terms and conditions for new orders. And therein lies the problem: people who ordered before that change found they also couldn’t get a refund anymore. This breaks the contract they had with Purism: at the time they entered into the agreement, the conditions clearly stated that they could cancel and get a refund any time they wished (prior to shipping, obviously). As far as I know, Purism has never publicly acknowledged this, nor given any explanation. That’s what a lot of the frustration regarding refunds is about.

Furthermore, you joined less than half a year ago, so you may not know the history. But a lot of stuff happened before you joined us. It’s gotten better now, but there was a time when Purism would keep radio silence for months, leading people to speculate. Then, out of the blue, they’d send out optimistic emails promising they’d reach certain milestones by a given date. So you waited anxiously for an update… and waited… And a week, maybe two after the deadline had passed, you’d finally receive an update that they missed the deadline. Or that time when they creatively redefined the word “shipping” so they could claim they were “shipping” the first units, when in fact all they did was receive the first batch of internal test/development units.

There’s a lot of history here, and the people who were early with their money are rightfully frustrated. Just because Purism has cleaned up their act a bit and gotten a lot better at communicating doesn’t mean the mistakes of the past weren’t made, or no longer affect the present. And sure, right now there’s this pandemic wreaking havoc on the supply lines. But the project was problematic even before someone noticed a weird cough in Wuhan. And the shortage of parts has no bearing on the software, which while having made a lot of progress lately, right now is still on the level we’d expected back in 2018 (and with a questionable battery life to boot).

And one could go on: you pay for a “working phone” in 2018, and in 2020 you’re being asked to help fund the software for it. Supply shortages hit the industry, and suddenly it doesn’t matter when you ordered, if you didn’t order the more expensive USA version, you’re put on hold as they’re prioritising that. Which would be somewhat acceptable if there’s a good explanation why those same parts are available for the US factory but not the Chinese one, but if you then top that off with “but you can always pay extra to upgrade to the US version and skip the line”, that’s rather questionable. Especially if it then turns out that you aren’t able to meet the delivery dates you published on your website for those either.

So yes, there is cause for frustration, even if things are improving lately. And there’s still stuff going on that makes people rightfully question Purism’s financial situation, and their chances of ever seeing their preorder materialise. Hopefully in 2026 we’ll all have our phones and can have a good laugh about this whole affair…

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There is a reality here that has been commented on MANY MANY times. I’ll summarize to make my point easier to digest:

First the issue of building a Linux Phone the way Purism envisioned. Ubuntu tried. They received over 4 million in crowd funding but did not reach their goal. I suspect that what Ubuntu raised was more than Purism has made on pre-order funding for the Librem 5. So was Ubuntu greedy? Nope, they were realistic, and the product history of the Librem 5 is proof of that. There is nothing wrong with Purism’s vision. It is noble in fact. But the truth is, making a pure Linux phone was always going to cost WAY more than ~$500 per phone. They couldn’t ask for $1500 in the crowd funding or no one would have supported it, yet that number is probably more realistic of a cost for the phone. Yet Purism has trudged on, raising funds anyway it can. The work they have done, as pointed out by amosbatto, is significant and important. Because of it, Purism is crucial to the mobile movement within Linux. If Purism were to fail, so too, would the dreams of a Linux phone being a fully functional thing this decade.

Management is pretty unethical from what I can tell. Their track record here is the evidence. However the developers are fighting the good fight. I think there is a pretty clear separation there. They each know that what they want doesn’t really happen if Purism fails.

The ends simply do not justify the means, and yet this is how Purism’s management is running things.

There are many people who understand all of this and are still here, because Purism really can’t fail without being a big problem for all Linux users.

That being said, coming here and throwing a fit despite being asked to desist is not something anyone is entitled to, as Dwaff has clearly articulated MANY times.

You either except the reality of the situation, or you use your means to get away and recover what you can. Coming to the Purism forums with the intention of slandering the company more, just doesn’t make sense. The people who obviously support the company are going to be here. Go to Reddit and create a new cult of Purism angst. You might be successful there. (I’m not talking about hedomi here exclusively, but in general to all these kinds of threads. I really don’t wish to argue with hedomi, and simply will not.)

I am curious though if other forum members see things this way?

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got your point , and partially agree.
users have right to be frustrated.
Purism approach to the problem is far from something acceptable.
especially changing rules of a game during a game.
in EU from law perspective such change of policy would not work backward in time. so order from time before will not be affected i don’t know how it works in US, but rule that law don’t work backward in time is Ancient rule.
so technically Lawsuit is easy to win.
etc.

However,
this forum, any forum isn’t a place to unload frustrations. here we are discussing issues with software , hardware , other related topics.

opening over and over topic with message : “fuck purism, purism is worst company ever” , other similar stuff, will not change single thing.
also take for a review number of users.
how amny of us actually have librem 5 , librem 14 , and are happy, and how many users here complains.
it’s small number, and most of them doing it in a way that not break rules of forum, with respect…

i was one of them, but happy day came and i got my long waited laptop…

i see nothing bad in a fact that people demanding they rights, what is a problem is a form of those complaints.

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That would entirely depend on what you mean when you say things like “throwing a fit” or “slandering”, as that’s subjective. Taken at face value, I agree with what you say. However, some people would call any form of criticism “slander”, and would classify any expression of frustration as “throwing a fit”.

I believe that you have the right to ask questions, and express your frustration when you don’t get the answers you have a right to. And having invested your money, you certainly have a right to answers to questions pertaining the unilateral changes in agreement, or inquiries into the cause of delays vs. the promised delivery dates.

You can’t hold a company accountable if you’re not allowed to ask questions or express your frustration at them when they stonewall you or fail to live up to their part of the agreement.

Yup, I concur.

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Anyone who still comes to complain (in any form, respectful, flaming or caustic) still has an interest in the situation. When people do not react at all, they don’t care anymore, and this is long-term poison to any project.

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To be fair, I don’t think anyone is saying “gimme the phone”. We’ve all PAID for our phones. And they were supposed to have been delivered YEARS ago. And we’re kind of fed up with Purism constantly lying to us - and now with this attitude.

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That must be the most condescending and insulting post I have read in a long time. I don’t think you know how old @hedomi is, but he is not conducting himself in an immature manner. But you are. Hence your comment about “growing up” is totally out of order, and shows only your bad and totally unacceptable attitude towards a customer. The content of the rest of your message does not even merit a response, it is so obviously out of order, and wrong. I’m not sure whether you are a Purism employee or not (your handle name suggests that you are), but if you are, any decent CEO would fire you.

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You don’t have the right to ask anyone to leave any more than they have the right to ask you to leave if it’s not your bar.

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I agree with what you say to a large extent, but when you say “Management is pretty unethical from what I can tell” I think you are too hard on them.

If you say Purism’s management is unethical, then please explain who is more ethical.

There are plenty of people sitting on the sidelines complaining. That’s easy, if you don’t do anything then you don’t risk being accused of any wrongdoing. But is it ethical to sit on the sidelines and not actively try to change things? I don’t think so. In my opinion, Purism’s management is more ethical than many of those who are complaining.

Then there are those who do something, but what they do is much easier and has much smaller impact and smaller chances of fundamentally changing the world, compared to what Purism is doing. Is it more ethical to stick to working on such comparatively harmless, easy projects? I don’t think so.

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The poster you’re replying to is not a native speaker, so keep in mind that “grow” and “grow up” are easy to confuse.

Purism staff can be recognized by the label next to the name, not the name.

You don’t have any more right to express your opinion than Dwaff does - it’s not your bar either.

You seem to be assuming the worst of the others, much like hedomi did. If you continue fanning the flames here, you may receive a timed ban too. So please be a bit more lenient.

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I’m not trying to say Purism is evil. I’m saying some of their advertising and handling of funds is unethical. Heck I’d go so far as to same some of the early production wasn’t really ethical. But that is neither here nor there at this point. My hope is that they have learned, even if only because of customer outrage.

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Purism has deleted a perfectly reasonable post by me. That’s because they have no answers. Rather than face difficult truths or complaints by unhappy customers, they prefer to just make us disappear. Purism speaks for itself with its actions, much louder than any of its customers who are complaining on these forums. Well, that’s fine. Just so long as you understand that when you won’t listen to your customers, all that’s left to us is to instruct lawyers and make complaints to the regulators.

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No, it’s because it was only reasonable if you consider breaking forum rules about insults reasonable. You were told you can post that again without the insult.

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There were no insults in my post, nor did it break any forum rules. I’m happy for you to share the post so that everyone can see that. I’m not going to post it again. I’ve already made my position about my next steps clear.

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Shouldn’t this thread be under the “Site feedback” category?

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There are things that I like and things I don’t like about Purism. But I have to speak in favor of the moderation of this forum. A few times I insulted others on purpose. I was warned. Fair enough. A few times my comments were flagged by the community. If I want to fit in with the community, I guess I need to change that behavior. Fair enough. I posted recently with the suggestion that all of Purism’s Executives should go to jail if they din’t disclose more information to people who make pre-orders. That post is still there. So to me, this forum seems fair, more fair than Purism’s marketing tactics.

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Just want to let you know your attitude does not help this company at all. The fact that someone from Purism backs your attitude is even worse. You both reinforce the way I feel about this company’s leadership. BTW… I am still waiting for my L5. I paid for it.

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I agree with you on some of what you say. I have been waiting for my Librem 5 for two years now.

But one thing that is so wrong in the US and in the world right now is that too many people aren’t honest about others after they decide that they don’t like the other person or the company. The company can have a terrible refund policy but can still run a good forum. Clearly, I am unhappy with the company when I suggest that its officers should be compelled to do something that I want them to do or go to jail if not. But that doesn’t mean that the forum is bad. You can be more effective in life if you stick to pointing out someone’s real flaws without making them wrong about everything because you hate them. You should go right to your state’s Attorney General if you have a valid claim and want to exercise your rights right now.

Many large companies have active lawsuits against their own suppliers and customers while maintaining interdependent business operations with those same parties at the same time. You can sue or prosecute with a smile on your face, without necessarily denigrating your claim by being honest about their forum. The forum may not even be helpful for your needs if you are serious about getting your refund now.

When I suggest in this forum, the possibility of forcing Purism to do anything by suggesting intervention from the civil or criminal courts, I only want them to know what people like me are thinking (for now). Sometimes someone’s thoughts do become the reality. But if I get serious about those things, you probably won’t see it from me here. I read a post in this forum several months ago where Purism deleted a thread from someone who was trying to organize group efforts in this forum to go after Purism legally. Purism has every right to delete those threads/posts. The fact that they left my post up tells me that they don’t perceive what I said as a serious threat to them. That surprised me because what they are doing looks possibly criminal to me. Either Purism’s response to that post (not deleting it) was a bluff or they have more legal rights to do what they are doing with respect to the pre-orders than I thought they did. Either way, that’s another data point for me. We’ll see what happens going forward.

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