[Refund Req] Librem 5 PREORDER from 2018-Sept-4, estimated for Q1-2022

good luck pal, i’ve been waiting for 6 months since i opened a refund request.
already tried everything except a lawyer which is going to be my next move

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@eugenr First of all, I absolutely understand your frustration. The whole situation sucks for all parties. I don’t mean to make light of that at all… but did you read the terms before pre-ordering? They are explicit:

“If you want to draw funds from any product that you: back, pre-order, early purchase, pre-purchase: when your pre-order is reached in the shipping queue you can decide whether to have it shipped or opt for some other option.”

So it seems that by pre-ordering you agreed to those terms. Now that there have been major delays in production, you want to change the terms? As frustrating as this has been, do you think that is fair?

Sorry, but they’ve changed the terms. That text was not there when I ordered in 2018.

Anyways, when I ordered, the page said “Estimated Delivery April 2019”. That was also part of the terms I agreed upon. You see, my turn has already passed after that date since all preorders before me should have been process by then. Yes, that was only an estimate. But after been wrong with that estimate in years time not months, after failing in all their obligations to me, they have the nerve to impose obligations on me! I’ve kept my obligations when I gave my money and the following 6 months until their estimate. After that I have no more obligations of that kind.

Now they are keeping my money against my will. Of course, they’ll pay for it! I make sure.

@eugenr I hear you and I genuinely understand your frustration (I really do)… but for what it’s worth, I have been buying Purism products for years. And I remember when the phones were first announced. I was extremely interested in them but the more I looked into them, the more I realized it was structured like a private kickstarter campaign. I remember hearing at the time that money would not be refundable until the phones were ready to ship because the money was going to be invested in design and production. It seemed like more of a start up donation or investment in cryptocurrency… “invest and forget… and be pleasantly surprised if I get anything out of it.” :slight_smile: I just didn’t have the capital for that kind of investment.

Anyway, that was before 2018… and I suspect that 2018 still had similar terms for pre-orders. Puri.sm has operated this way for a long time. They are a small company that has always played a game of inches and pennies to make it all work… and their loyal customer base supported the effort. It was all seen as a necessary inconvenience so they could make what everyone wanted.

I have no idea what the printed policy was in 2018 and I’m not saying you are lying. It’s obvious that you feel scammed and violated by the whole thing. But given what I know about Purism and my own reasoning for not buying a phone back then, I strongly suspect that you may have overlooked the clause in their policy.

I will see if I can find some online discussions about the subject from that time period. I know that very topic was discussed publicly because I wasn’t the only one who opted not to preorder. It was seen as more of an investment than a purchase at the time.

I hope you sort this all out… but before you have an attorney draft a nasty letter (only to have Purism reply with a copy of their 2018 policy), see if you can find evidence that they made no mention of preorder conditions for refunds… or you will just lose more money in attorney fees. Best of luck.

As I see it the issue is Purism not being straight with us.

When I complained about not getting my Librem 5 USA, I was told it would be 6-8 weeks. I should be fairly high priority because I was a dogwood batch person (originally–I opted to wait for Elm) but I was being told the exact same thing a new order was being told at the time (it now says 90 days).

I get the feeling my place in line is not being honored and I come here and see others not happy as well.

And this is for a phone that is “In Stock” according to the website. That is quite simply a LIE. If it was in stock, there should be phones on the shelf ready to ship. Which in turn would imply that old orders have already been processed and shipped; and new orders can be fulfilled quickly. Instead they contradict themselves by saying 90 days to fulfill.

There’s no reason an “In Stock” item should take 90 days to ship. Therefore, it’s NOT in stock and they are LYING about it being in stock.

This could be construed as fraud, particularly if people order the phone on the strength of a belief they will get it fairly quickly, and because it is “in stock” there should be no further delay other than the 90 days (really?) given on the website. I was, in fact, told I’d get it sooner than I would a regular Librem 5. (Actually that might even be true…frightening thought.) By the time they realize otherwise, Purism has their money and won’t give it back.


@SteveC At the risk of sounding like I’m playing devil’s advocate or taking sides (I’m not)… It seems that your complaint is the delay, not a denied refund, correct? If you are talking about both then consider…

If the terms of the sale clearly stated that refunds would not be issued until the phone was ready to ship, it’s not fraud. It’s an agreement between buyer and seller (however unreasonable the policy may seem to you). It was you who agreed to it.

The term “in stock” was clarified in a recent post. There are two conditions that are stated when making a purchase. Stock availability and the estimate of time to fulfill the order (which is determined by previous ability to resupply stock to meet order demands). So “in stock” is not mutually exclusive to “resupply”. Both can apparently be true. In other words, it’s possible that when you ordered, the Librem 5 was in fact in stock and (given order demand), they were also resupplying that stock so that they could fulfill orders within their estimated window of time.

Many companies don’t have “live” inventory reflected on their website. They account for potential discrepancies by saying it might take x amount of time to ship. That’s not fraud. It’s a common practice.

It’s like cooking dinner. You check to see if you have butter… and you do. It’s “in stock”. Then unexpected company arrives (increased order demand). So you go out to buy more butter to feed everyone (resupply). That works most of the time. No need to keep pounds of butter on hand for the possibility of unexpected company when you can just go to the store and buy more. You keep some in stock and you buy it as needed. But then the world goes crazy and not only can you not find butter at the market, but all the toilet paper is gone and the house guests go home hungry.

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The problem is, if you go to puri.sm main page your entire screen is covered with an ad for L5 USA that says it’s “in stock.” And that has been so for months.

They can’t be “in stock” by any reasonable definition of the term, yet still have unfulfilled orders from June.


Great price! If I was buying now, instead of already a few months behind you in the queue, I’d be all over it.

Let me amend that… “Everything is going to be OK in the end. If it’s not OK, it’s not the end.” :kissing_heart:

The problem is, if you go to puri.sm main page your entire screen is covered with an ad for L5 USA that says it’s “in stock.” And that has been so for months.

The word “stock” doesn’t appear on the main page. The product page says buyers will get it in approximately 3 months. Again, no mention of “stock”, The Librem 5 product page says it will be a year before it ships. Again, no mention of “stock”.

They can’t be “in stock” by any reasonable definition of the term, yet still have unfulfilled orders from June.

I explained how it reasonably occurred in my last post. It’s a common practice for online vendors to continually replenish stock and give lead times to account for replenishment. “In stock and shipping with a lead time” typically means there is product on the shelf that is continuously stocked and shipped within a certain period of time.

When parts supplies dried up this year, the estimates were wrong. The reason orders in June have not been filled is because some parts became completely unavailable. The estimates were not “lies” or “fraud”. They were based on historical lead times.

Your definition of stock would require that online retailers maintain web sites that reflect live inventory. However, most online vendors don’t do that. So what’s reasonable? The most common online retail practices or semantic arguments about a word?

Let me amend that… “Everything is going to be OK in the end. If it’s not OK, it’s not the end.”

Actually let me amend that.

“Everything IS okay”

Much better. :slight_smile:


Yeah they have removed it recently from both the main and the product pages. Still here though: https://puri.sm/posts/taking-stock-of-librem-14/


Yeah they have removed it recently from both the main and the product pages. Still here though:

Just curious… do you see a difference between only saying “in stock” and saying “in stock… but you won’t get it for at least 3 months”?

How do you interpret “in stock with a lead time of 90 days”? What does that tell you?

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For me, it tells that they have on the shelves available units for sale to new customers. The 90 days, probably means that the shelves are on the dark side of the Moon, and when you place a new order, they will prepare a Librem Rocket, send it to the Moon, land there, astronaut Kyle take a unit from the stock, go back to the rocket, makes some orbits around the Moon, then hurry back to Earth, then land, take a Covid test, write a news post, and send the unit to the customer, and everything done in a just-in-time Purism fashion.


Well… Back in July when I was placing my L5 USA order, I asked myself that question. The answer was (naive in hindsight) “they have some units now on the shelves but they are packing them for customers who placed orders several weeks ago. If I place mine now, my unit will be on the shelves in 90 days max”.


Sure, that’s one possibility. But one thing it’s not is fraudulent. They say right up front “This is gonna take a while.” That’s the most relevant info on the order page.


Well… Back in July when I was placing my L5 USA order,

That seems like a reasonable response given their past experience of filling orders. Honestly it’s still not that late when you consider the delays in countless other industries. I had to wait considerably longer for a new vehicle that cost a lot more money than a phone. And I was initially told I would have it in two weeks.

It’s not fraudulent if they are mentioning they are talking using the Puri language not English. Because in English, ‘In Stock’ means ‘unsold units on the shelves’, while in Puri language it also means ‘pre-order units are transiting our shelves on their way to customers’. And ‘if you order now, your unit with transit our shelves in 90 days’. See the difference?

Irrelevant. They are saying that you’re not getting it for months. The rest is semantics. If someone is confused by it, they can email and ask. Not complicated. Just my opinion (and I paid my dues waiting for Purism product for most of the year).

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The delay itself is only a part of the problem. And not the biggest one.

Back when I placed my order on 5 July 2021, the L5 USA page was saying “Now shipping! Place your order now, get in approximately in 6 to 8 weeks!”. (I had actually asked the support about those 6-8 weeks before placing the order, was told about 90 days instead and thought “okay, 8 weeks is approximate, 90 days would be the maximum”).

On the 91st day after my order was placed, the site was still showing “Now shipping! … approximately in 6 to 8 weeks!”. And it was continuously showing that for many more weeks after that.

Now, who the fuck were those units “Now shipping!” to on the 91st day after placing my order? Why the fuck was I not one of those recipients? As I was not one of them, why the fuck was it still showing “in 6 to 8 weeks!”? Why the fuck did I not receive an email with apologies for the delay on the 91st day and offered immediate refund? Why the fuck would they TODAY not process my refund immediately but estimate several weeks for it?

The answers are: the timeframe estimations were reckless bullshit aimed to keep people placing orders. They knew the chances to meet those estimations were very dicey, yet they kept saying “get in approximately in 6 to 8 weeks!” — because if they said the truth “production is slowed down / paused, we don’t know when it will be resumed” people would stop placing orders, and they did not want that.
Now they don’t have cash on hands to process refunds when requested. Instead, they wait for people to place new orders and then maybe will use that money for refunds.

That is exactly what has completely ruined my once reasonably strong trust in Purism. If they are bullshitting people like that, how the fuck can I trust my data to their soft/hardware? This is the main problem, not the delay.

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