[SALE] Selling my future Librem 5 Evergreen, pre-ordered on 2018-Sept-4, for $650

I never claimed that the taxes are avoided.

My question is: was the payment done in your name/address, and the receiver could use that as proof even though the package was on his/her name and address? Or how this taxes have been handled? By you?

Upon re-reading you never said NO customs would incur. I am sorry for misreading in haste. My apologies.

In this case, the customs office opened the package, verified the customs declaration (on the outside of the parcel). DHL notified me that I would have to pay import VAT and I had to pay in my name. In this case I did not have to present an invoice (which I did not have, this being a present).

But in another case (an order from China, I needed to send the invoice to the customs office (of course the Chinese company had included a fake bill just for customs sake and the customs office correctly did not believe a mobile projector would cost 50$. I had to pay the additional costs on top :frowning: )


Not directly relevant to the topic, but: you’re misunderstanding mass production. It means: we’re not making one-off units, made by additive manufacturing or CNC, with pieces hand-made or hand-soldered afterwards. We manufactured moulds and did all the one-time set up costs for pieces of the production pipeline that are expensive to set up and hard to change. Mass manufacturing is not a description of a number, but of a process. Although many more phones are being manufactured now that is out of the way.


I don’t mind offtopic discussions on my topic. But I’ll flag them if they are going to be too irrelevant.

In Nov 2020, Purism announced shipping for the mass-produced Evergreen and also changed the waiting time for new orders from 6 months to “a few months”. And they refused since then to give any numbers to back up these claims.

Ok, mass-produced and a few months: it’s not unreasonable for me to think based on that communication from Purism that I’ll get my phone in February 2021. Now we (the backers) determined the throughout to be about 500 phones /month. This time, Purism didn’t come out with any objective reason of why is that so slow. Didn’t they know that in Nov 2020? Or later? Why still “a few months” on the Shop page. Sorry, I had enough of Purism.

Then why are you trying to profit from your Librem 5 order and not selling it for the original price? Given the problem with trusting you discussed above, this should be more fair imho.

Why should I give to a new buyer $200?

I think it’s fair to split it. I want some money for my frustrations, ok? With original price I loose money on currency conversions.


simple… the guy who orders today buys a phone, with his credit card. if he doesn’t get a phone, he calls master card and asks them for change back…

You bought a place in a queue for a device that might be manufactured (project backing) so you already got what you ordered.

Except now there is a claim that you holding a place in a queue (that you don’t even know if it is transferable), for a device that might never materialize is worth $100.

As I said before it is not a good deal for a person to pay $700 instead of $800 for a device that doesn’t exist. (you backed a project not bought a device), whereas the guy buying at $800 today is buying a device, not backing a project.

Even if we say that you are shipping a device, a $100 discount to give up all the protections offered to consumers by law is a really really bad deal…

and nobody is suggesting that you should give anyone $200.nobody mentioned $200

What was said was that if you want to sell a phone, sell a phone for $600, sell it for $700 if you like! but be aware you are selling a phone, and if you fail to provide a phone you should refund whatever the person paid you for a phone.

If you want to sell your place in a queue with a chance of getting a device advertise it like that.,

Then act in a manner that conveys trust worthiness!!
You ask what did you do to not be trusted. that’s simply not the way that trust works. you do not automatically trust everyone until a person lets you down, your default state should be skeptical, people work to gain trust. so the answer to the question is nothing, you have done nothing to gain my trust at all, and that is why there is no trust. as far as loosing any level of default feeling like you could take someone at their word… Just have a look at what you wrote.

You say that I’ll have your bank number and that gives me security because I can trace you.
but that’s a lie, it gives me no traceability whatso ever! - and as I said this should be obvious to anybody that ever heard of any internet scams.

Then when I point that out, rather than addressing the argument, of admitting you were wrong, you try to ridicule the advice saying that I don’t trust the police.
I never said I don’t trust the police at all, in fact I do trust the police. I trust them to tell me it is very unfortunate that I lost $700 transferring money to a random guy in Romania, and that I should be more careful how I handle money on the internet in future. - they may even give me a little booklet on how to avoid being scammed online if I’m lucky.

tl;dr, lying about protections that a person has, and then attempting to ridicule people who point out that you lied is not a good way to show that you are trustworthy.

You might be trust worthy, you might not be. I’ve never met you.


I am not trying to challenge your personal integrity. It looks like you want to end your business relationship with Purism because Purism didn’t meet your expectations and therefore, you believe that maintaining a business relationship with Purism going forward, would be an unwise choice. If this is the case, then your logic is not entirely wrong. However it is not as simple as that.

Several thousands of us have all made this same questionable (and perhaps unwise) choice here. To some degree or another, we all know it. I knew this before I placed my pre-order and I knew it long before Purism stopped issuing refunds. I even anticipated that at some point, they would stop issuing refunds. And yet if they offered me a refund today, I would choose to keep my place in line rather than to get the refund. There is no better alternative out there when it comes to the real product, which includes more than just some hardware and software. Even the Pinephone would not be where it is today without Purism’s work. I didn’t just buy a phone. I bought in to a dream of a world that is not controlled by the big tech companies, and the dream of a world that must respect a person’s privacy and right to be free of advertising. This seller’s ability to fulfill on this kind of product is questionable. But they seem to have pulled rabbits out of a hat in the past. The seller’s choice of how they choose to communicate to us can be maddening. But they have started shipping some real product out now, even if painfully slow and behind schedule. I’ve dealt with some pretty dysfunctional companies in my life. I can’t tell if Purism nears the top of that list or if they’re pulling off the impossible and it’s just needing and taking more time than they anticipated they would need.

When you try to sell your pre-ordered Librem 5 phone before it is delivered to you, you’re really saying that you no longer believe in these things, or that you no longer choose to believe in the ability of the only company out there that is producing this kind of a product, to fulfill on their product delivery eventually, even if you think it likely that they will eventually ship your phone to whoever owns it later. This is the dream that you’re selling along with your pre-ordered phone (that the seller is no longer worthy of selling that dream and so the remaining product lacks the same value it once had). And yet no one else in the market is even willing to offer a similar product (despite Pinephone’s offering). Big Tech Wins ! because our pride is worth more to us than the dream of privacy and respect in the technological world where we currently have no such rights. That’s got to be a hard sell. To charge more than you paid for your pre-order sends a signal that although you don’t like what Purism has done and is doing now, that you don’t mind making a profit on it. If you really believe in freedom in the technical realm, now is a good time to either wait for your phone or to go down with the ship in the event that it sinks. That doesn’t mean that you can’t buy a Pinephone (to include Phosh and Libhandy which you have already helped to fund), also. But I have a feeling that everyone will get their Librem 5 phone. I figure that by the time I get mine, that most (or at least more) of the bugs will have been worked out and that the Librem 5 app store will be full of good choices.

By the time that most people buy their phone from Purism, my Librem 5 will probably be several years old. If I never get it, then at least I will have attempted to purchase for a worthy product, one that benefits everyone.


I don’t like stock traders, but I still have a pension fund.

When you bought your pension fund, the people selling you the fund probably didn’t market it as a necessary evil that they don’t mind making money on because they anticipate a drop in value of the stocks they’re selling, even if that was the case. You bought in to the dream of taking part in mainstream society’s premier investment opportunity. Nothing wrong with that. I did the same. It all has to do with the marketing and in what you’re attempting to create. Purism’s forums are dedicated to protecting your digital rights, and not so much geared to helping those who want to bail out of that dream. Everyone except today’s incumbent tech giants stand to win if Purism wins. It’s difficult to see why anyone would want to bail out now while in the final stretch, while likely being in a winning position. Purism has pissed me off and disappointed me several times now over the past few years. I can’t see how that is relevant now. Some investments take longer than others to vest or go bust.

Please stay on topic: selling eugenr’s phone.

EDIT: Hmm, seems I took this sentence out of context, this is an analogy. Still, this thread seems to be going a bit too meta and based on your personal trust to eugenr and whether people think the price is relevant and the value and…

You get the point, it’s all opinions and maybe doesn’t really mean much.

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Our products are dedicated to protecting your digital rights. Our forums have a related but a different goal: to give a place for our customers and fans to form a community. That’s a subtle but important difference.


@eugenr, I suggest that you either look for an escrow service to handle this transaction or you simply wait till you get the phone before trying to sell it. I’m pretty sure that you will be able to sell it at a profit when you receive the phone, and someone will be happy to buy the phone from you at a $99 discount. Good luck.

I really doubt that production of the Librem 5 will be linear. If Purism is currently producing 500 phones / month, it will probably produce many more per month in March and April, so your phone is likely to arrive before August.

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If I’ll have to wait for the phone, I’ll use it myself not sell it. I need a Gnu/Linux phone, and I don’t have a problem regarding L5 but Purism. I’m not looking to make profits here. But I do want fairness.

Purism gave reliable estimates all the way through May. Those estimates indicates 500 phones/ month, linear. Why would someone expect an increase of “many more per month”?

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We want to get those orders out the door as fast as we can. Among other reasons, it makes our customers happier compared to if we weren’t as fast as possible.


This was the most well-dissected classified ad I’ve never seen. We have moved from economics, legislature, ethics. Damn I love this blog!


Thanks! Now I think that workaround might be that potential buyer, from OP in this thread, indeed needs to provide money for the cost of VAT, cover all import costs as applicable within Romania (580+19% = 690.20 EUR) or in some other EU country, under his pre-order name. After Librem 5 delivered to the original buyer from Purism, also needs to be arranged (perhaps with some kind of contract/trust) that package itself is not opened and resent ASAP to the another private buyer (as agreed/arranged with the OP) that already covered cost of the Librem 5 itself to the OP here.

690.20-580.00 = 110.20 EUR increase of cost that seller of Librem 5 (this offer) needs to have already received (available) before receiving/resending out the particular Librem 5. Plus cost of ensured delivery to somewhere else, somebody else. Now we are already at around 720.00 EUR (at least, right now) of the cost in total that OP should expects to be covered anyway/anyhow (perhaps 80% up front). How this will be arranged, it lays on OP to propose (100% up front, 60% up front, payment with rates, I have no extra idea). My only concern is what if OP isn’t expecting to be possible for him/her to pay for the Librem 5 import fee (if now lives somewhere else, lack of money, or whatever reason might be involved), besides being honest.

What if OP changed his previous address of living (and therefore needs to send his new address of delivery to Purism) or something else. Again, my only point was that somehow he/himself needs to pay for the VAT (not someone that buys here related phone/offer from him).

Above approach is of course based on what Purism currently offers for/to EU customers, as if there would be possibility to buy Librem 5 from EU reseller than I’d be able to buy under my name Librem 5, pay for related/necessary VAT and arrange with this/such EU Shop of Purism, that sells Librem 5 with included VAT cost (like Shift Shop preorders, for example, trust me or check by yourself, if EU is place where you live) to send it to some other address of delivery, so easy is this (I pay, someone that I don’t need to even know in person receives package/product that I payed for).

Yet here we (myself) are talking only about import of goods to EU customers from USA, or about “Buying goods online coming from a non-European Union country”, in particular (not to be misunderstood).

P.S. And finally, here is my proposal: “Offers are welcomed only if they come from USA, with USA delivery address (I’m selling my early delivery date/spot)”. Whatever, just don’t get me wrong and help yourself and OP as/if you can. As title of this thread says for $700, customers from USA (Canada?, Australia?) only, “please”, as my preference and all related (like direct delivery) “will be arranged with Purism, for sure” (in accordance to their selling strategy).

I think you got it wrong. As I said, the package would not be send to me at all, as myself or the buyer would set the shipping address to the buyer’s. So the package travels directly from Purism to the buyer. As a receiver and importer, the buyer would pay all the necessary taxes that applies in his country. If necessary he would show a document that the product was indeed bought from Purism with $599 by a guy in Romania, and sent to a different address.

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Having read all the reactions to the initial post, one thing is for sure: if I would ever consider to sell my librem5 at all , I would try to avoid doing so in our forum at all costs :grinning:. The only thing missing here is a call for a stoning of the heretic who dared to question the holy movement by trying to sell his relic :laughing:

All puns aside: Maybe it would be a good idea to create a separate category in our forum for such ads, as there are e.g. also people seeking to buy a used Librem 15 ?


There’s a big difference between selling a Librem 5 that you have … and selling a Librem 5 that you expect to have at some unknown future time, under conditions (shipment, taxes, warranty, …) that are awkward to arrange at best.

In addition, the OP is attempting to ‘take advantage of’ the price difference between the earlier prices and the current price (never mind about the future price).

If you sell a Librem 5 that you have then a buyer knows exactly the price that a new phone could be purchased directly from Purism, avoiding all of the awkwardness of a private transaction - and apply a discount from the then new phone price to account for the negatives of a private transaction.

I don’t think you need to invoke heresy and blasphemy :slight_smile: to explain the scepticism of many people who have posted in this topic.

It’s just my opinion but I think that if the OP wants to have a “change of mind” on the sale, when Purism is not offering that, then it should be done at a small loss. Even then, I wouldn’t touch it.