The Atlantic Journalist (Barton Gellman) Always Watching His Back After Interviewing Snowden

  1. my described situation is not hypothetical
  2. it does not apply to your specific example. It is still very much relevant.

You guys are right, the government should be held accountable for its actions.

…and so should journalists. I was in the military, and I’ve been classified information, and I’ve had the media ask, on television, of the President, what my unit was and what our mission was. It was INFURIATING.

A “good cause” does not excuse shitty and irresponsible behavior. This journalist acknowledged being both when he was aware of the damage he could cause and then justified it anyway. It never occurs to him that reporting that information means that, now that the enemy knows where to find me, I’m gonna be the next guy to get blown up trying to hand candy to a kid who has a bunch of C4 under his shirt (and that’s not hypothetical either).

So forgive me if I’m not as gung-ho anti-government as you folks. There’s more at stake here than sticking it to The Man.

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Answering a general question with a question … what is your threat model?

The journalist in the above article took it very seriously but that was commensurate with the expected threat level - with both the US government and foreign governments as potential problems.

Likewise if you use the Purism anti-interdiction service, they will ask you the same question.

For myself … perhaps not seriously enough but so far, so good - unless they are really good, in which case I will have been pwned without even knowing it. Security is a process of continuous improvement.

Perhaps, though for most people the threat model does not involve state actors / intelligence services. Perhaps the threat model is mostly populated by script kiddies and the odd organised criminal.

Can you provide a link to the story where this happened or give a time or place? We have to look at the specifics in order to judge whether a story is in the public interest, whether the reporting was endangering the lives of US personnel, and whether this reporting was harming the ability of the military to carry out its operations.

Where does Barton Gellman “acknowledge the damage that may be done by his reporting”? I don’t see that in the text of the article. What I see is a journalist who interviewed Edward Snowden and Thomas Drake to get the evidence that the US government was violating the 4th Amendment rights of millions of Americans. What is the “shitty and irresponsible behavior” by Gellman? From what I can see, Gellman is performing a public service that is vital for democratic oversight of the government.

There is always a balance between the need for secrecy of operations and the need for the public to know, but Gellman’s reporting was clearly in the public interest as far as I can tell.
If we have to find that proper balance between secrecy and informing the public, it is generally better to err on the side of informing the public.

Let me give you a couple examples of when not reporting on secret government operations actually caused more harm than good. When the CIA overthrew the governments of Iran (1953) and Guatemala (1954) and then tried to do it in Cuba in 1961, there was not a robust debate in American civil society about whether the CIA should be violating international law by overthrowing foreign governments, because the CIA’s role was poorly reported in the US press at the time. The CIA’s action in Iran overthrew a democratically elected government in order to place a brutal dictator in power and created a wave of anti-American sentiment that led to the Iranian Revolution of 1979, which is why Iran has been an enemy of the US ever since. The CIA’s overthrow of democracy in Guatemala led to 32 years of dictatorship and a brutal civil war in the 1980s that killed 200,000 people and destroyed 400 Maya villages. There are roughly 1 million Guatemalans living in the US today, partly because the US refused to allow the government of Jacobo Arbenz to carry out land reform and social reforms in the 1950s that would have solved its social and economic conflicts and prevented the subsequent civil war. In contrast, the US didn’t repress the reforms of Costa Rica in the 1950s, which is part of the reason why Costa Rica is a well functioning country today, whereas Guatemala is riddled with social and economic problems. Guatemala City is the only Latin American city that I ever visited where everyone gets off the streets in the center of the city by 7pm due to fear of the gangs at night.

Unlike the CIA coups in Iran and Guatemala, the US press did some reporting beforehand on the US efforts to overthrow Castro. However, the American press failed to report that Eisenhower authorized in August 1960 that $13 million be spent to overthrow Cuba’s government. There were reports in the US press about Cuban exiles who were training in Guatemala to invade Cuba, but Americans didn’t know the details. Turner Catledge, the managing editor at the New York Times decided to suppress many of the details about the upcoming Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, in an article written by Tad Szulc on April 7, 1961. He deleted from the article the fact that it was the CIA which was financing and training the invasion force and he deleted that the invasion was expected to happen on April 18. He changed the article from half of the front page (4 out of 8 columns) to just one column. Reporters and staff at the NYT argued with Catledge, but he said his "reasons were those of national security, national interest and, above all, concern for the safety of the men who were preparing to offer their lives on the beaches of Cuba.”

The NYT wasn’t going to tell the Cuban government anything that it didn’t already know, since it had spies among the Cuban exiles being trained in Guatemala. The details of the invasion were an open secret in Miami and Guatemala, which is why Szulc stumbled so easily onto the story during a brief stop in Miami. The Nation and the NYT had already reported in January that there were Cuban exiles training in Guatemala in order to invade Cuba, so Szulc’s article with the details deleted did not add anything new. Two weeks after the Bay of Pigs invasion failed, JFK called a meeting with the editors of the major newspapers and berated them for disclosing government security information, but when Catledge pointed out that he hadn’t published anything new that wasn’t already published by The Nation, JFK responded, "But it wasn’t news until it appeared in The Times.” The reality was that JFK was not trying to keep the news from the Cubans, but from the American people, because he didn’t want Americans to discuss and question whether their government should be overthrowing the Cuban government. Then, JFK said something even more revealing to Catledge: “Maybe if you had printed more about the operation, you would have saved us from a colossal mistake.” The implication is that the Kennedy administration would have cancelled or changed the invasion plan if the NYT had reported the details.

By not publishing the details in the name of national security, the NYT allowed a poorly-planned invasion to go forward, where 8 Americans and roughly 265 Cubans lost their lives. More importantly, the invasion convinced Castro that the only way to survive was to openly put Soviet military installations on the island to deter another US invasion, which ultimately led to the Cuban Missile Crisis. In other words, the decision to not publish the details of the invasion, led to an event that threatened the lives of millions of people around the planet. By capturing the invading force at the Bay of Pigs, Castro garnered more support and prestige among Cubans, and he gained a rhetorical tool to justify his dictatorship, because everything his regime did after the Bay of Pigs was deemed necessary to protect Cubans from the American empire.

What the CIA operations in Iran, Guatemala and Cuba show is that we shouldn’t automatically assume that the press shouldn’t report on secret government operations. If there had been proper reporting in these 3 cases, there would have probably been a better outcome not only for the people of Iran, Guatemala, and Cuba, but arguably for Americans as well. Iran would have been a democracy in the MiddleEast and with the money from its nationalized oil would have investing in social programs. Guatemala would have avoided 32 of dictatorship and a civil war that lasted till 1996, and have used social reforms and land reform to make a better society. Cuba would have been less tied to the USSR and we could have avoided the Cuban Missile Crisis.

This pattern continues to the present day. The US is currently carrying out wars in 8 countries in the MiddleEast, and most Americans know almost nothing about what US troops are doing in those countries due to the lack of adequate reporting. The US government was involved in coups in Haiti (1991), Haiti (2004), and Honduras (2009), plus attempted coups in Venezuela in 2002 and 2003, but these coups got very little press coverage in the US and there was no robust debate in American civil society about whether the US government should be overthrowing Latin American governments. When Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump demonized Honduran refugees, most Americans had no idea that their government helped create the later refugee crisis by participating in the overthrow of the government of Mel Zelaya in 2009.

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i know this is a technology forum and this thread is supposed to be about general security and PRIVACY chat but to me it seems that this “sword” has been out of it’s sheath many times … to me what is sad is that usually the “sword” ends up getting the deserved attention and not “the master” … sad indeed :sweat:

Or, picking up on that point, do governments that are armed with the vacuum of secrecy make better decisions than those that are subject to scrutiny and public debate?

There is a pretty good reason why the First Amendment exists.

yeah and David Icke goes a few more steps ahead and trolls us with “it doesn’t matter if ANY gov is or is NOT transparent to public scrutiny because there has always existed a secret world gov behind it all that pulls ALL strings”. this is just ridonkulous :slight_smile: either way bluff or no bluff if he is correct then we’ve been trolled all along :mask:

It seems I’ve screwed up.

I had bad information. That scenario, while not hypothetical, also didn’t play out as I had thought. The military told the press where they were landing (marines and SEALs) as part of a photo-op. So now I’m angry at them instead, for different reasons.

Here’s an article if you want to see for yourself:

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/10/world/mission-to-somalia-tv-army-on-the-beach-took-us-by-surprise.html

As for the rest, I was referring to his saying he’s thought a lot about the public’s “right to know,” the what-ifs that follow, and then the acknowledgement that “…if we do know, then our enemies know too. This can be dangerous.” (ctrl+f for the word “sadistic”, its one occurrence is in the third what-if paragraph. The right to know precedes the first, and the dangerous part comes in the paragraph after “sadistic.”) I suppose my problem with him is that, while he acknowledges the potential for getting people killed, he never actually addresses it (and yes, I inserted “people getting killed,” he never said that, but I am in a position to know that that is a distinct possibility). To me, that is shitty and irresponsible. He can argue his case for disclosing secrets, certainly, but he should be good enough to present the whole picture on both sides.

It’s like if I were to go to the public and argue the case for a new manufacturing process. I tell everyone how much cheaper and quicker and even safer it is, but you happen to know that that same process involves chemical exposure that has a, let’s say, 40% chance of inducing an acute heart attack. If all I ever say about it is “there are dangers involved, as with any manufacturing process,” would you be so keen to just let that slide?

I feel like I’m going off on a tangent, so I’ll wrap this up by saying that it is dangerous to more than just the government when people who do not know how to handle classified information have classified information. Good has come from it, certainly, but it’s playing with fire where other people get burned bad enough to be tortured and killed. This man, Barton Gellman, has not demonstrated a concern for that, even though he acknowledges that it is (by using the very general phrase "that can be dangerous). Either A) he doesn’t know how dangerous it can be, which I find unlikely, or B) he doesn’t wish to address it, which is shitty and irresponsible.

What the CIA operations in Iran, Guatemala and Cuba show is that we shouldn’t automatically assume that the press shouldn’t report on secret government operations.

Your examples (and indeed, I believe this applies to all examples) demonstrate the benefit of hindsight, nothing more. The foresight required in order to reconcile the divulging of military operations to the public at large doesn’t exist because nobody can see how the future will pan out.

ALL THAT TO SAY, I still think he’s getting what he deserves, more now because after this discussion I’ve become convinced that the issue isn’t that he doesn’t know the harm he could do. Instead, he willfully ignores it.

I don’t think it is realistic that the government is ever going to pre-announce invasions of / overthrows in other countries. However I would make two observations:

  1. The knowledge that the government will be judged publicly in hindsight might encourage them to think more carefully beforehand, rather than rushing in like fools - and, yet, the government will always try to keep everything secret.
  2. Even if nothing is ever thought about beforehand or publicly debated beforehand, the debate after the fact can inform future actions - and, yet, the government will always try to keep everything secret.

In the past, the government has used this as a “catch all” reason for keeping everything secret, so people are rightly sceptical. There is also a gulf between the potential for people to be killed and anyone actually being killed.

So when you say, in your analogy, ‘40% chance of a heart attack’, what it often comes down to is … a sometimes unidentified government department has assessed the risk as 40% but we won’t be releasing any of the facts or analysis that led to that conclusion so … trust the government.

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I’m not saying “always trust the government at their word,” I’m saying that sometimes it is actually the right thing to do. Military operations, for example, which seems to be the now-dominant topic. Or at least, the prevalent example.

And yes, hindsight has its benefits, I wasn’t arguing that. It just wasn’t appropriate for buttressing that argument earlier.

Perhaps our disconnect come from trying and not trying to tie-in military-oriented examples. As far as government disclosure (or lack thereof) is concerned, I feel its an outlier.

The government should not spy on its citizens. I think we can all agree to that.

The government should be as transparent as is feasible. I think we can all agree on that as well.

The government should not tell everyone about everything it’s doing. I think that that is a fair statement as well. Even if there was some super secure “US citizens only” network, the people never would have (or at least wouldn’t today, if WWII was going on right now) gone for something like D-Day, for example, which was a necessary act.

At any rate, we’re largely in agreement. My military background has just taught me that there are some things that the press and the people don’t need to concern themselves with.

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the context. how did ww2 start ? and how did nazi-Germany become so powerful in such a short amount of time ? who gave them money and the resources to do it ? who were the people behind it all ? what was their agenda ? etc. etc.

neccesity is a big topic …

I don’t think it’s proper to inject context into another person’s statement. I was referring to the necessity of D-Day in the context of military strategy, nothing more. Your questions would require a separate discussion.

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not quite a discussion just the ability to find a library and burry yourself in research for as long as it is required … historical truth can be discussed ONLY if one presents proof against it …

regarding the overall vibe of this thread i must say … came for Batman stayed for … Morgan Freeman ?

You’re injecting context again. As I said, I was speaking on military strategy, period.

sure. however that military strategy applied in that PARTICULAR context favored the US of A rise to power as THE global leader and defender of justice and prosperity.

removing context is detrimental to finding out the TRUTH …

No, that particular context was an example of a difficult decision made by military strategists that would, in all likelihood, be found unfavorable by the general public. It was, however, deemed necessary by those same military strategists, people with expertise in that field, and thus it would be the better decision to keep the public at large, who don’t have that expertise, out of that particular decision making process.

I’m not removing context because that context is not applicable to the point I was trying to make. You’re injecting context (thrice now) to use my words in order to support an argument you are making by casting them in a different light. That is, I feel, improper.

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i don’t understand - must be my shitty English. could you clarify what exactly it is you feel i did is improper ?

I think most rational people would agree with that. However there does need to be some checks and balances for the military. I think we are probably long overdue for that. We made a series of choices leading us to be liars to our own people and it’s been a crazy fast moving series of rabbit holes ever since. I think we had a fork in the road during the civil war times and we started going down a darker path, then by the end of ww1 i think we were pretty steadily moving in the wrong direction, with ww2 being the catapult and since then we’ve somewhere passed the point of no return. A group of states seceding i think would be the only viable option for America, or part of it, to return to its former glory in terms of integrity and morality, our current state is just too far gone to fix imo.

It is worth listening to Gellman explain his decisions about what he decided to publish and what he decided to not publish at 42:30 of his interview with Reason. In my opinion, he was pretty thoughtful about the consequences of what he was publishing.

In this Snowden example yes, sure. I was speaking more generally, as he was in the original article that is the topic of this thread.

Sure, I’ll give it a shot. Forgive me if I end up insulting your intelligence, I’m simply trying to be thorough.

“Context” is defined here. What I observe you doing is changing the context of my words to something else, thus changing the implied meaning of what I’d said to fit your argument. I don’t think its right to alter someone else’s argument. Counter it, disprove it, explain why its wrong, sure, do all those things as they apply. But to change their meaning is what I find to be improper.