The Librem 5 is awesome

Hardware Librem 5
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Hello. You answered the question. It was more of a speculative question related to the often-used “planned permanence” claims by Purim and others - as these claims relate to mobile devices.

I would love some form of modular modem that can be used by the Librem 5 (pick your device) for such things as a 5G upgrade should 4G shutdown. I fully recognize how difficult it must be for a company to spec-out and manufacture these devices. However, as a consumer, I think these things are important and much akin to the “right to repair” movement.

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Also, I wanted to add that the ability to SSH into the Librem 5 is awesome.

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One big way I’m spoiled with the Librem 5: it shuts off!

As far as I know, no iPhone or Android device sold in the United States reliably supports this feature. I have a (Android-fork) Fairphone with a removable battery, so that can be turned off, but Fairphone, last I checked, does not ship to U.S.A., so I had to buy the device through a third party.

Last time I used an Android device, I set an alarm, and I was asked something like, “do you want the alarm to chime even if the phone is off?” In other words: the phone doesn’t really shut off when you ask it to, and since Android and iOS devices are essentially black boxes, it is mostly impossible to tell what it is doing while pretending to be off. Is the microphone on, listening to me? I don’t know. Are location services working to track where I go with my “off” phone? For iPhones, yes, certainly. Maybe for Android also. Once you expose your life to one of these devices, it is extremely difficult to set any meaningful boundaries, where the device doesn’t have access to some part of your life.

As an iPhone example, I noticed a while back that my iPhone would connect to my Wi-Fi access point at home, even though it had been off for months. After talking about it with a few people and thinking it through, I came to know that this enables the “Find my iPhone” feature. So essentially, Apple is tracking your location and the other networks/devices that you interact with, even when the iPhone is pretending to be off.

The Librem 5 is completely different, and it offers several mitigations, depending on my preferences. When I shut it off, it is basically off. It keeps track of the time, but it probably isn’t listening to my conversations or tracking my location. If I am concerned about that, I can turn off the hardware kill switches, and then the phone would be disabled at the hardware level from listening to me or tracking me. If I am still concerned, I can easily remove the battery, giving me maximum confidence that my phone is finally respecting my privacy.

The difference between the Librem 5 and Google/Apple phones in this area is so vast, I don’t ever want to go back to the always-on/alive “zombie phone” duopoly.

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I absolutely love what you write, this feeling of being on the right side when trying to survive an unjust world. (Why aren’t there more heart emojis that I can spend on a post?? :joy:)

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I think the devices not ever turning off will be a continuous trend for Android and iOS. Since Google has also started with a “find my device” service using trackers that essentially just triangulate from GPS positions by other devices like phones around you. So they certainly have interest in tracking your location as much as possible to have this service functioning at least.

I think the hardware kill-switches on the Librem 5 is a huge deal in that regard. Because you don’t even need to turn off the whole device to be certain that nobody is tracking you. I mean if Wifi/Bluetooth and cellular modem is disconnected, the only ways for an attacker to get any information from that device would be via rendering on screen, playing audio via speakers or vibration. All of these options certainly cut the range and make access overall way more difficult.

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I keep thinking of new awesome things so I am going to continue to post them as I think of them:

It is pretty awesome that I can reflash, whenever I want, the phone with new images of an operating system such as (1) an encrypted or unencrypted PureOS image on the EEMC; OR (2) an alternate operating system such as Mobian or perhaps PostMarketOS on the EEMC.

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Within some forum config parameter limits (which limits are unknown to me) you can just edit your OP to add in your additional thoughts - and that would continue the numbering of the points in case anyone wants to refer to one of them.

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Posts can be edited as many times as possible for up to one month, at which point they can no longer be edited anymore. The only notable exception to that is wiki posts.

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CPUs Like the iMX8 usually have a calendar feature, Sometimes called RTC. The calendar Feature reqires a low-power supply such as a CMOS battery (often a CR2016 coin cell, can be found in Most PC or Laptop Mainboards). Smartphones usually Just use the Main battery. For battery swapping Sometimes even Supercaps. The RTC ist intendended to run in halt/poweriff/suspend state, too. The nice Thing about arm CPUs: The RTC/calendar can Trigger Interrupts to wake Up from suspend. Librem5 has the ability, but Driver and userspace Interfaces are Missing.
I’ve got enough from Reading about nonsense Spy/conspiracy theories frome people WHO dont know better. You are free to learn and ask questions but please dont make assumptions that make you Look Like derps in my eyes.

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By the way, Nokia and Siemens phones used to make alarm Sounds back in my days school, even when the Phone was switched Off. More than 20 years ago.

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I don’t know you, but we didn’t get off to the best start :stuck_out_tongue: I hope we can be more respectful to each other than that.

This is interesting, but it only is at all relevant to one small point in my post: that Android phones offer that same feature. It doesn’t address the advantages that kill switches and removable battery offer, and it doesn’t address:

And:

You may have some specialized knowledge, and that is great, but you should know that the people here are not derps, just people. Like you are.

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I never thought people are derps. Whatever that means.

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Pretty sure the comment was not aimed at you though it quoted you as reference to what was being discussed :slight_smile:

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You seem to be making an assumption here that because the hardware is capable of a specialized feature – such as RTC – therefore it should perform that feature, whether the user wants to or not.

As I mentioned above, something I really like about my Librem 5 is that (more often than Android) the Librem 5 has a tendency to only do what I ask, and not more. Even if you know about RTC and I do not, suppose that I learn about the existence of RTC, then I chose to unscrew the backplace of my Librem 5, disassemble the device, locate the RTC portion of the hardware, and destroy it. I might do this simply as a matter of choice, because that is something that I may choose to do with a hardware that is my property.

If I make that choice, would you say that I “don’t know better” because it was “supposed” to use the RTC for the calendar?

I would say that this consideration makes me like the Librem 5, because the Librem 5 allows me to imagine the possibility that I might do something like this some day for my own entertainment, whereas I cannot imagine even trying to accomplish something of the sort on a duopoly device without breaking it. The duopoly devices do not open up!

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RTC is actually pretty useful for things like an alarm clock. You can already use it from terminal via rtcwake as root user or via sudo privileges. Also systemd has started to provide a user level interface for it, so that applications like GNOME Clocks can use it in the future to make your phone wake up from suspension if necessary.

Thing is though. As long as only free and open software is using this capabilities, it will always be possible to disable it if preferred. So besides destroying hardware, you can actually kill it in a reliable way via software because PureOS is as open as it is.

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To be clear: I didn’t write “you are derps” but you Look Like some in my eyes. I hope That does Not hurt anybodys self-esteem.

Sorry, I don’t have Details about the Location Service when powered Off, but I guess IT IS similar Like in AirTags, or Something in combination with some low-power connected standby-feature in WiFi or Modems. To be honest: I think this a great Feature. However in the hands of big corporations a Miss-use against you IS self-evident.

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But not unique. Termux (from f-droid) installed on an Android devices allows SSH both to and fro the device.

When one powers down an Android device — at least mine — it shuts off. No alarms. No network access (logs indicate it did not connect to wifi). No power drain. It’s off. I just turned back on an old Android phone that had been sitting for a few months. It still had 95%+ charge on the battery.

That’s not to say that a phone can’t be hacked to “play dead”. But you don’t know that about the Librem 5 either except for the fact that it consumes so much power it can be warm even when “sleeping”. :wink:

As an iPhone example, I noticed a while back that my iPhone would connect to my Wi-Fi access point at home, even though it had been off for months.

I’m not an iPhone expert, but the “Find my phone” feature only works when powered off if you set “Findable After Power Off”. Also, I’m skeptical that it is accessing the WiFi when powered off. The Apple resources say that when this is set, it still leaves power on to power bluetooth, UWB, and NFC … and the phone acts like an airtag would in terms of finding the location. They say it does not use wifi.

I don’t think we should let “fear of the unknown” drive decisions other than the decision to “expand our knowledge of what we don’t know”.

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Yes, sorry for the confusion @thejackimonster , I was responding to simeon and using your comment to support my response.

I would trust what I actually observed over online documentation of a black box.

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Of course you would. But I hope that you understand that from my perspective you’re just a random person making assertions on the internet. Instead, I’ll trust the documentation plus the observation that it would be a big deal if anyone else had observed something similar … combined with the fact that I know a lot of people look for exactly that sort of thing. i.e. I still don’t believe you.

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Citation needed then.

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