Why I will be cancelling my Librem 5 preorder (different reasons from other users)

That is a very simplistic view. Having interacted with a number of the developers and members of the tech support, I would say that they are very honest and hard working people, so it isn’t fair to tar the reputations of the employees with the decisions of management.

I also don’t think that we can judge whether company’s management is “dishonest” without knowing the financial situation of the company. You mentioned the changing of the refund policy as “everything that [you] need to know about them”, but that doesn’t tell you everything. We need to know the financial situation of the company to be able to make a moral judgement about the actions of the company, because without knowing that, it is hard to judge.

We don’t know what options Purism had on the table in February 2020 when Purism changed its refund policy, but it is worth keeping in mind that Purism had to raise the price of the phone in January 2020 and a number of the developers were let go or quit between February and May. In addition, the commit record shows that there were fewer commits during that time period, so it looks like their hours were cut back for the developers that stayed.

Again, I don’t know the financial situation so I may be totally wrong about this, but I suspect that Purism was facing a situation where it feared that it wouldn’t be able to finish the developing the phone because too many people were canceling their orders, but Purism had already spent their money on developing the phone, so it couldn’t repay them. Legally, you can say that Purism should have refunded everyone who canceled their L5 orders, until it was no longer able to repay and it should then have declared bankruptcy and cancelled the development of the phone, in which case all the customers who preordered would probably never get their money back since they have lower priority than banks and employees in collecting owed money. If that were the other option on the table, then I would say that Purism made the better choice. On the other hand, if Purism decided to change its refund policy because it allowed the company to make greater profits that quarter, then I do think the company deserves opprobrium. My point is that you shouldn’t make moral judgements on the character of the people at the company without knowing the facts of the situation.

What we do know for sure is that Purism has been doing some very solid dev work, which no other company is willing to undertake, and 56% of PinePhone users say that Phosh is their favorite interface. Nicole Faerber says that it took about a dozen revisions of the main board in the L5 to get it right, which shows just how hard it is to develop a phone from scratch using a new SoC without a reference design. What Purism is attempting to do is similar to Nokia’s efforts to develop the N9 and Meego, and that took over 2 years for the biggest phone company in the world (at the time). It took 5.5 years of development before Android was released in its first phone (the HTC Dream in 2008).

It is also worth keeping in mind that many companies have failed at mobile Linux in the past (Sharp, G.MATE, MonteVista+Motorola/NEC/Panasonic, Wind River, Palm->HP, ZiiLabs, FIC/OpenMoko, Golden Delicious, Nokia+Intel, Samsung+Intel, Mozilla, Canonical+BQ/Meizu and ARCHOS). Having watched what happened with the Jolla Tablet, where the company went bankrupt and most of the people who preordered lost their money, I think that we should keep in mind how hard it is to build custom hardware and pay for the development of mobile Linux. Of the roughly 3 dozen companies that currently sell Linux hardware, only Purism and System76 are paying for any software development, and Purism does a lot more than System76 despite having far lower volume.

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That’s great. You may be 100% correct.

I paid Purism money for a phone.
My end of the transaction is complete.

I do not have a phone.
Purism has my money.
Purism has completed 0% of the transaction.

Everything else is really irrelevant.

When I purchased the phone the marketing implied that they would be shipping phones within weeks. There was no implication of any risk of shipping delay. That was -years- ago.

I do understand how complex and difficult this endeavor is. Clearly there are some talented people doing great things over there. I hope that management treats them better than they treat their customers.

My investment in Purism’s efforts towards overcoming the challenges of producing a mobile linux phone came in the form of -purchasing- a mobile linux phone from them, an actual product that would be shipping shortly, according to their marketing. Again, this was years ago.

Perhaps I am a fool for taking Purism at their word, but how would that make them anything other than dishonest?

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a mobile linux phone from them, an actual product that would be shipping shortly, according to their marketing. Again, this was years ago.

This does not sound accurate. Or is there some misunderstanding? The phone started to ship some years ago in the form of the first prototype Amber, and then a bit later there was Birchwood and so on until finally Evergreen shipped at the end of last year, right? At least I got an email way back asking me which batch I preferred. I explicitly stated that I wanted to wait for Evergreen and so I was aware that I would have to wait quite a long time for it. What do you mean when you say you ordered a phone several years ago and was told that it would ship in a couple of months? Did you not receive any mail asking you which batch you preferred?

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Sorry for possibly going off the topic a bit, but do you think that Valve, as it’s handheld is Linux and there is great support for Proton-gaming, will tip the scale towards better or more linux? How many days will it take for someone to flash their device with a new distro - possibly something with mobile minded UI?

Does GrapheneOS make connections to Google servers?


From the order page in January 2019. When I ordered.

Shipping starts April (2019 is implied).

I find the claim that this marketing in 2019 was less than honest to be at least somewhat credible. Should I and others who purchased at this time have done more research to see that this was infeasible, maybe; but at some point at least some of the burden falls to the party making the claim.

Edit: to clarify, I’m not the one you actually asked this of, but I do at least have evidence for that specific point.

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When I gave them my money there was no discussion of batches.

Here is a waybackmachine link for the Librem5 page from mid July 2019:

Go to that link and look for the words: prototype, amber, birch, evergreen.
You won’t find them.

Click through to the preorder page. Still no mention of prototypes. This looks to me like a product page. When does it ship? “Shipping starts in Q3 2019”
Go ahead and add one to your cart…

This looks exactly like “purchasing an actual product that will be shipping shortly” and to describe it as such would be perfectly accurate. That is what it felt like when I gave them my money in anticipation of Q3 2019 and it still feels that way now.

If the situation was different and their marketing intentionally presented the situation inaccurately then that would be the definition of dishonest.

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This right here is the part anyone outside purism can neither prove not disprove. Purism has claimed that these claims were accurate to the best of their knowledge at the time they were made and they were conservative estimates. I personally am skeptical of this, but don’t have the information they had then, nor do I have the experience they had then.

As such, proving dishonesty vs just honest inaccuracy is effectively impractical. The combination of these things with what amosbatto has estimated of financials does imply something, but it is still an implication not proof.

They presented the transactions as a sales but are now treating them as some kind of risky Kickstarter investment. They literally changed their part of the bargain after the fact.

Not sure how “honest inaccuracy” explains that.

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That’s separate from not shipping on time. It’s a different example of a different problem.

Changing the refund policy and treating pre-orders as anything other than orders made before shipping has started is not something I have seen a defense from purism on, nor is it something I would defend (there are actual several posts where I have criticized this quite harshly).

I’m not on board with conflating these two separate issues though. Using them to show a pattern and support the narrative of dishonesty, sure, go for it, it’s not proof that they lied about the shipping estimates but it doesn’t look good either.

There are also the, repeated, missed shipping estimates for the librem 14 that were changed several times and are further examples of being wrong but not proof of intent.

I have not confirmed, but allegedly the 13 and 15 also suffered from shopping estimate inaccuracies.

There is a pattern, but that is not proof it means what you say it means.

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I saw this great video by a photographer SG Collins discussing the tech available Vs needed to fake the moon landings in 69. He breaks down all the contortions needed to fake it, then makes the point “You think maybe it would be easier to just go to the moon?”

Looking at all this, I can’t help but ask “wouldn’t it just be simpler to ship the phone?”

Great video though, worth a watch.

No! You paid for a start-up project, not an already done smartphone! That’s your mistake IMO

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Wouldn’t it just be simpler to acknowledge the severe semiconductor shortage hitting even the largest customers?

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Because it’s a joke. Kids’ phones that only show a static page work better. What’s wrong with you even ordering it in the first place…

I wonder how much effort it would take to provide software kill switches for this:

At less than $600 it looks like a far better deal than the Librem 5 HoS they will ship in 2022.

Please get back to us when you have GNU/Linux running on that phone without any binary blobs for drivers and we can compare the features with the Librem 5. If the intention is just to run some variant of Android, then I don’t get the point of ordering a Librem 5 or Pinephone in the first place? Comparing the HW-specs of the Librem 5 with that of a mass-market Android phone is silly.

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Furthermore, people who use Windows 10 are not automatically clueless about the pitfalls of such an OS. I use it, and am 100% certain I’m more in the know on things security and privacy related than you. So take that with a grain of salt, this being the internet and all.

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Where did you get the impression that the Librem5 is a start up project?
Can you provide any sources?

I am basing my argument on the Purism site at the time of purchase - there is no mention of “paying for a start up project” on purism’s site - why would they omit that?

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Eg: “The launch of Purism’s crowdfunding campaign for the Librem 5 dubbed the “world’s first encrypted, open smartphone ecosystem giving users complete device control” – is a big step for the small hardware startup and social enterprise (Purism is incorporated as a Social Purpose Corporation).”
Ref: https://www.techradar.com/news/in-pursuit-of-purism
But you can easily find a lot more using a search engine.
So you “invested” an a high risky idea, being a crowdfunding project made by a start-up small Company!
You’d resize your expectations and accept you’d loose your investment :wink:

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