Of course. So it has to be a direct contract between the car manufacturer and the cellular network, presumably on the basis that the volume of information is relatively low. You paid for it when you paid for the car. You paid for it up-front.
2 Likes
@Freedom_Right: ok my bad, it’s more than just infotainment.
And it’s a good thing that car manufacturer work on opensource platforms.
But does it bring guarantees to the customer about data collected ?
This, I hink, will depends of the policies in the General Conditions of the car maker…
I don’t think that contract exists, but I’ll accept your evidence to the contrary.
Well, let me qualify my statement.
I don’t think that contract exists in my case, because there is no option to use online services, even for a subscription fee, in my vehicle. I think that if it was connected anyway, Subaru would provide the option to use it for navigation and whatever else 1) to entice people to provide more data and 2) to make more money.
There is a mandatory service in EU, it is very good if only intended for its scope (to save lives after an accident)
Yeah, right. By rule 34a, if it exist, it will be abused, sooner rather than later.
4 Likes
in this context what would constitute a “new car” ? electrical only ? hybrid ?
my car is brand new from oct 2018 but it uses gasoline not even diesel lol … it does have a proprietary ECU but it doesn’t have an integrated navigation device 
Every car with a new type approval after April 2018 in the European union. The propulsion method doesn’t matter.
Exactly, it is not mandatory if you buy now a new car approved before April 2018, details are here
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:02015R0758-20180331
The automatic call is for 112, the emergency telephone number in European Union (equivalent to 911 in USA), so it is free of charge, it does not track, monitor or record data in absence of accidents (according to law), differently from other private road safety systems (possibly resembling eCall) that are, or will be possibly offered under a subscription by private operators in combination with other value added services.
1 Like
Right. The “you” in “You paid for it when you paid for the car” was a generic customer, not you specifically.
The point is that the price of privacy and security is eternal vigilance, so we have to be ahead of the game about how things might work in the near future or, in the EU, are already working for new cars.
For the EU, while it may be mandatory for the functionality to exist, is it mandatory for the functionality to be working? In other words, can I legally disable the functionality while continuing to drive the car? Not that the car manufacturer will necessarily provide a way of disabling it.
Hence why we need open source car software.
The linked Wikipedia article touches on the very obvious privacy concerns.
1 Like
My wife’s 2018 Ford Focus Titanium navigates just fine without a phone connected, even routing around construction and accidents in realtime. It also displays the current speed limit and I highly doubt that it is reading the signs! I suspect that it has a cellular connection, but we don’t pay for one.
1 Like
You wife’s car seems to have its own GPS antenna then. Navigation software can derive speed as well as deduce when you’re on a road with a high speed limit (information included in maps files, like POIs) but travelling at a much slower pace, and should thus take an alternate route.
Not only this, but if I remember correctly you can receive traffic information via wideband radio transmissions so it may not require 2 way communication to have traffic data used for routing with offline maps stored locally on the device.
With that said, it is also possible for a car manufacturer to have agreements with cellular providers and have always connected cars without charging you monthly for the service.
I think that’s the goal of having all of the different computers in a car (ECU, Infotainment, etc) as open source systems so that we can see what is actually happening instead of guessing.
2 Likes
Oh, it does re-routing and I’m sure it has it’s own GPS receiver, but it literally knows the posted speed limit, not just my speed and the average speed of other vehicles via wideband radio. I could believe that it had downloaded Google Maps info when it was connected by the wife’s phone and that may include speed limits, the dash displayed speed limit was never wrong on a 300 mile trip the other day. It would only be able to do that if it was updating the map data as we drove.
Next time, I drive the car on a long trip (by myself), I’ll ensure that there isn’t a sneaky connection in play.
This information is available as geographical information (map overlay).
The only way you could use it to prove that the car itself has a cellular network connection is to see that it is getting geographical information updates while knowing that
- it has not been connected to your or your wife’s phone in any way
- it has not been in for service
(and for there to be updates, a posted speed limit would have to have changed).
So, in respect of bullet point 1, if you pair the phone with the car in order to make or receive calls via the car while in the car or in order to play audio from the phone to the car then, with a black box phone and black box car, it is difficult to rule out that the car grabbed a map update via the phone while paired.
Modern smart cities are putting transmitters in the road network itself to provide the posted speed limit (and a corresponding receiver in the car).
I would keep an open mind as to whether your car does or does not have a cellular network connection.
Hence …
We should not have to guess.
1 Like
I seriously doubt the car would download map updates from the phone via Bluetooth, as they can be quite large and Bluetooth is still pretty slow (not to mention the possibility of exceeding a drivers data limit and costing them money for the excess usage).
@Photon I see no compelling reason for you to be concerned about your wife’s car. If it makes you feel better, my father’s 10 year old Garmin knows posted speed limits, too, as did my aftermarket stereo, and they both relied on map info loaded on an SD card. I don’t remember if the Garmin offers to re-route, but my stereo did whenever I was going slow for some set amount of time in a place where the speed limit was significantly higher than my travel speed. And hell, even my GPS-connected radar detector knows how fast I’m going.
1 Like
I have my doubts too but it was about proving it or ruling it out. Obviously Hotspot via Bluetooth is possible.
But not feasible. If feasibility is irrelevant, then why even discuss this?
There is camera built-in behind the windshield, take a closer look (or check owner’s manual). It reads Maximum Speed signs on the move (informs Navigation system as well), I have no doubts.
This feature is, in particular, called FordPass Connect and: “Live Traffic access is free for the first 2 years following the purchase of a new Ford featuring SYNC 3 with navigation; thereafter there is an annual licence fee.” Sorry, but I need to agree with what @kieran already wrote here: “You paid for it when you paid for the car”.
I agree and hope that these September 15 – 16, 2020 events will bring some light to us:
This is true (no map download over Bluetooth when using mobile broadband). And, I already talked about Garmin solutions because they use two approaches that doesn’t involve integrated (e)SIM like solutions for automated live traffic support, current info (like car accident in two minutes ahead that you cannot reroute anyway, yet eventually stop your car on time if necessary) needed when counting down distance to your destination as safe as possible.
I brought Garmin solutions for consideration as for example solution from TomTom (TRUCKER 6000) that provides services via built-in SIM card was not something that might help here (other than to understand how things that are usable in practical sense work). Optionally:
If there is no effort to bring Real-time Traffic Info software solution integrated into Librem 5 than I consequently agree with what @reC already mentioned, suggested not to buy:
or with what @Gavaudan already wrote here (if you buy built-in Navigation):
With emphasis on neither receive (what needed in order to avoid traffic jams or similar). Still, as @kieran mentioned, if you own car with built-in SIM than there is no way you will avoid spying when and where you drive your car (as you prepaid for this, “free” usage for at least two years, offer). Please, every individual needs to think precisely over this topic way before it is too late (what to share or/and what to receive when in traffic and how):
2 Likes
That was really long, but also really appreciated. We bought the car from a Ford dealer when it was almost 2 years old, but with very low miles and a very low price. It didn’t come with the usual manuals and I haven’t gotten around to downloading and researching everything. I learned a lot from your post.
HD Traffic explains a lot of what I am seeing. I knew about HD radio in theory, but I didn’t think I’d ever seen one. Now I suppose the head unit in the Focus is HD, but the only real indication to the driver is that the radio will display song or other info from the station – if we are close enough to the transmitter. It isn’t something I noticed before, as we live way out in the tules. What it doesn’t do is let us tune digital sub-channels, which I thought was part and parcel of HD radio.
1 Like
well yeah, but not every individual that drives a car i somebody ABLE to process decisions at the level required by your example … most will just give up when they realize what is required for such an informed decision to take place …
i need an open-source car that i can drive around WITHOUT breaking the law or that might trample MY or OTHER peoples RIGHTS …
1 Like