I might be reading it wrong, but I think there was an attempt to conflate “crowdfunding” and “pre-order”. Orders after mid-November 2017 are pre-orders and have different expectations in regard to refunds (e.g. FTC Mail Order Rule) than any funding that was part of the crowdfunding campaign.
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I read it different. You probably shouldn’t repeat that narrative. Remember the forum rules.
AVOID : personal topics or rants (like non productive, unfounded complaints), controversial topics (religion, sports, nationalism or politics), ineffective discussion ([ bikeshedding)
Just because you read it different doesn’t mean privacy2 is wrong… and what better way to clarify understanding than to say it in your own words? Privacy2 admits there may be a misunderstanding, then articulates their perception. Saying your perception is different in no way invalidates theirs.
From my perspective I don’t know if it was intentional to conflate the two, but it does appear they were being conflated…
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Right. It is impossible to prove right and wrong on who is taking a stance. That’s why the wise moderation rules ask you not go down that path.
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Which is why I gave links that show precisely when Purism went from a “crowdfunding campaign” to “pre-order” and quoted Purism on that. That should hopefully prevent people from any confusion
on when that happened.
Specifically: The Librem 5 stopped being a “crowdfunder” on/before Nov 18th 2017 and those phones have been, AFAICT, delivered. Thus any discussions presuming that those seeking refunds at this point in time are “crowdfunders” is not, IMO, correct.
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And that’s irrelevant to any user facing developer who has to deal with real world problems and setbacks. This was already explained this to you and you keep ignoring it.
So here is their reply after I inquired into why they skipped my place in the queue for getting refunded (order from 30.01.2019):
"We have reached your place in the order queue and we have added your refund to be processed.
But the refund process is slow at this moment."
That’s not very helpful, is it.
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As I explained to you, it is not irrelevant.
That “user facing developer” took a stance about refunds by saying things like “Just wanted to point out that if you request a refund for a device where what you paid for was its production and development (as it was crowdfunded) …”. That stance, IMO, hinges on whether or not the refund
was from someone participating in the crowdfunding. I believe it is vital that we all understand that
everyone participating in the crowdfunding campaign has received their device (or refund) and that the people complaining are people who pre-ordered their device.
At this point, you’re distracting from the topic. Please create a new thread if you wish to reply further.
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No. My phone is great. I got it about 3 or 4 years ago. I bought it new for $150. When I go hiking and turn off bluetooth, wifi, cellular modem and just use the GPS, I get about 5 days of battery life (mostly just bringing up topo maps and taking pictures). I have no issues with VoLTE, GPS, bluetooth, … or really anything.
Of course you’re probably asking about Librem 5’s. I never ordered one. I started seeing red flags around June 2018 and it was clear that they would not meet any of a sequence of delivery estimates. IMO the marketing/messaging/PR got to be more and more deceptive and I began to warn people about those red flags.
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So why are you still here?
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So far have filed complaints with the Better Business Bureau, with the econsumer.gov and with the Attorney’s General Office in California.
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While this is a controversial topic, discussions about Purism are relevant (and delicate) enough here that even controversial ones get a pass. If you meant that some other rule is broken, please point out which one and why.
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It’s great that @Privacy2 is still here pointing out unethical behaviour. Rather than pulling up the ladder behind oneself they are here trying to ensure fairness for all community members.
Over the last four years it has been a frustratingly long wait before the L5 finally came my way. During those four years, I have been really disappointed and even angry at Purism for making me wait so long and for offering so little reliable information on the production process. Heck, I even feared they would be going out of business before they could deliver my L5.
Now that I have the phone in my possesion, I am still somewhat annoyed and frustrated by the things that are not working properly or not working at all (VoLTE, BT, GPS, camera, suspend/battery life, the rather clunky interface, etcetera).
But I never suspected any foul play or bad intentions. And I am very happy with the aspects of the phone that are as promised (the control and privacy it offers, the overall quality, the HKS’s, etcetera).
So maybe Purism does not excel at marketing and pr, but I think they working their asses of to make ends meet and to deliver a decent product. I don’t think they are dishonest, and I don’t think they are out to pull a fast one on us (it’s about three years too late for that, anyways).
I can imagine people being frustrated by how hard it is to get a refund. But I see little reason for all the allegations being made in this and other threads.
I see plenty of reason to ask the questions being asked.
You appear to be seeing the device and seeing a lack of malice and in turn appear to be attributing incompetence to marketing and PR.
Others see the development teams posts and effort on the software and in turn don’t want to attribute incompetence to those obviously intelligent people and are left with malice as a more comfortable reason to accept.
Personally I attribute both to @todd-weaver as my perception is Todd marketed too much too soon then when that couldn’t be met obfuscated and delayed and has since stepped to the side leaving the rest of the team holding the bag doing the best they can to make things work out without publicly attributing blame to anyone. That’s my opinion based on both what has and what has not been communicated by Purism. Sometimes what isn’t said can speak louder than what is said.
The Purism team appears to me to be in an unenviable position yet doing the best they can with what they have. Since @Kyle_Rankin has taken the reigns I have noticed a more balanced approach to communication and while there’s always room for improvement I do think there is a best effort being made here.
Refunds have been a point of contention for a long time and while they do not appear to be being provided as promptly as they should be, I’m optimistic that as time progresses this is a problem that will get resolved and will eventually be a thing of the past. Moving away from crowd funded product development is a step in the right direction, in my opinion, as it reduces the time between purchase and delivery thus reducing the opportunity for situations to change and reduces the complexity in estimating the amount of buffer needed for prompt refunds.
Is my perception correct? Who knows, aside from some people within Purism, theres a lack of evidence either way thus making inference a part of having an opinion. Is your or anyone else’s perception correct? The same amount of who knows applies here.
We’re all working with the same lack of information trying to fill in the blanks to understand why decisions are being made that don’t seem to align with our expectations of a company that many of us care about the goals of and want to see succeed. My perception is that most of the people frustrated with what’s going on with refunds and asking these uncomfortable questions do want to see Purism succeed, they’re just frustrated with the current situation.
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Just to update the thread here as well - I posted info about how Purism is not refunding me, even if my turn in the queue has been reached (order placed in January 2019). Other people are in similar situations. My posts have been cut off, under the mention that they are off topic. Once I mentioned the steps I am taking (including filing a report to the police in Germany), the thread was closed entirely. I’ll post this information in other forums to shed a light on Purism business practice.
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I think some of your posts were “cut off” because those particular ones were inciting legal action against Purism. They’re not going to let you organize a lawsuit against them here in their own forums @qxqxw. 
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This thread ssems to be going along just fine.
So why doesn’t Purism comment on this themselves? Of course they may have no legal need to, but I have no legal need to buy a computer from a company that I fear may be bankrupt/insolvent. I would have already bought one if it wasn’t that I keep seeing this issue brought up.
A binding, if highly-hedged with attorney legalese, annual or quarterly report along with some forward looking statements, current backlog and expected resolution, etc., would go a long way towards quashing (or supporting) concerns like this. As would an external audit by a known accounting firm.