I'm giving up on the Librem 5

Fine by me, I wasn’t slinging mud, all I was suggesting is that some people incorrectly judged this product how is that a personal attack? All I said was that you buy this product at your peril if you think it’s going to be as slick and available as an iPhone or Android device from the big brother companies. If you did buy it you intended to support this company that is miniscule compared to it’s competitors and you should manage your expectations accordingly. If that’s mud slinging then I guess we can’t have adult conversations in here without hurting feelings.

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You should go back to what you actually said. Let’s look at this, it seems like an attack to me:

And here it’s an attack and telling people how to behave:

I would not characterize that as part of an “adult conversation”:

  1. It accuses anyone who isn’t satisfied as “whiny” or “lacking cahones”. It’s victim blaming.
  2. It mischaracterizes customers as people fighting a battle.
  3. It presumes to tell dissatisfied people how to behave.
  4. It presumes that everyone who disagrees doesn’t have “… the correct mind set (sic).”

Accepting poor corporate behavior is not a necessity. One could always buy a pinephone – Pine64 is a much better organization in my opinion. Or one could buy a phone that supports Sailfish. Or buy an Android phone and install a de-googled image like Lineage or GrapheneOS (or equivalent).

Is the librem 5 a finished product yes or no? Did you buy one thinking it was? Did you just go to the website send in your credit card info and pull the trigger without any research? I’m curious what your answers are to these questions.

BTW who am I to tell you how to behave? I’m just a rando internet guy as are you to me, all I was doing was to point out that if you go to the widget store expecting gizmos, you’ll be disappointed. Buyer beware, this is a dev project that is just now coming out of its initial development phase after several years of setbacks including an unforseen global shutdown and chip shortage, plenty of historical evidence in this forum. The adult part of that is accepting there are risks with this kind of project and lowered expectations. If your goal is to end up with a device that has the highest level of privacy then you should support their efforts despite any warts or shortcomings or inconvenience to you, by supporting them you hope they become a not so small business so your kids have options outside of big brother in the future. My parents had a small business and it was feast or famine sometimes. Sometimes there was nothing left after paying their employees and in the electronic device field especially smartphones, its a huge stunt to develop a product from the ground up Incredibly risky as well. I really think if you had a do over you should have just gotten an iPhone or and android and the clue to you would be that you couldn’t get a librem 5 from ye local cell phone shoppe.


Na… Lineage and GrapheneOS still use Google Code, or depending on that open Souce stuff. Do you really think that this is better as a really free Linux alternative?

I think you do not understand how that Companies work, like Zuboff described… should be pleased to have purism, and free alternatives!

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  1. Graphene uses AOSP … which is Open Source. Is it better than the current Librem 5 software? Absolutely.

  2. The previous poster was only complaining about “spyware” from Apple and Google. Graphene has only Open Source code – AOSP is open source. The Sailfish source is largely Open Source and the code that is proprietary can be downloaded.

You don’t know me. Don’t make assumptions about what I know or don’t know – I know
a great deal about the corporate world. Also: I’ve already mentioned to you that I’ve used Linux since late 1994 and Open Source software (emacs, gcc, and latex) since the mid-to-late 80’s.

I know that Purism is a for-profit corporation. I know that they have done things to cause me to distrust them. I trust Pine64 much more than Purism.

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Hardware-wise: Yes. Software-wise: No.

But it should be pointed out that at various points in times it was advertised as one. Purism has certainly over-promised and under-delivered.

I never bought one. I figured Purism out in Q2 of 2018 and have warned people about
them ever since.

Exactly. So stop telling me and others how to behave. It’s rude. It’s also rude to try to
demonize/demean those that you disagree with.

There you are again, some rando, trying to tell people what to do. You also seem
to believe Purism’s marketing. Remember, they are a for-profit corporation and are
always advertising. Why should you trust them? I don’t.

I don’t want to support a company that doesn’t honor their refund policies. It shows
that they can’t be trusted.

I’ll just get a pinephone – just as “private” as the Librem 5.
Or I could get a Pixel 6 and put GrapheneOS on it.

This just underscores that you don’t know anything about me … and still feel compelled
to presume you know what’s best for me. Why do you think you do that? As I’ve said
is rude and infantile.

As I said: I could just get a pinephone. Or a pinephone pro. Or even a Pixel 6 and slap GrapheneOS on it.

Is this some weird twisted elitism??? People seem to confuse “rare” with “good”. That’s
ridiculous. It’s kind of like all of the teenagers who think they’re cool that they use Linux
on their desktop and “most people don’t do that.” You’re selling “cachet” … and I get
no value from that.

Sailfish is largely propietary code plus an obsoleted qt,gecko + a massive bugs everywhere.

You say in binary code?

No it’s not. There’s only a small amount of proprietary code – it’s basically just the graphical shell. The core underlying code is Mer. Mer is FOSS.

If you don’t want to use the proprietary shell, you can try to use Glacier + Mer (aka Nemo) on any device that is supported under Sailfish.

Here’s the source repository: https://github.com/sailfishos

All the app core of sailfish is propietary, except the browser. Also the new v.o.l.t.e and AlienDalvik is propietary, and there are many packages inside of sailfish that is propietary too.

Jolla killed Mer, so no more Mer.

Glacier it is not more compatible with Sailfish anymore.
Yes i now that Sailfish is Opensource OS which means it contains blobs everywhere. Just Free Software OSes is reputable to free blobs, security, freedom.


The only thing you got right is AlienDalvik (I don’t know about VoLTE code). One only needs that if you want to run
Android packages.

I linked the SailfishOS repository.

You’re funny. Nobody killed Mer. Mer is FOSS. Anybody can use it, create a derivative
and distribute it. Jolla was maintaining the Mer repoository and they merged it with the Sailfish repository. Nobody died.

That would be like me saying “Purism killed Phosh” if they renamed it GNOMEMobile and merged it with the GNOME repositories. LOL.

And Glacier is fine too. Nemo = Glacier + Mer. Stop spreading misinformation.

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The Graphene OS fans just refuse to remember that the OS is not the only software that matters.
Every Graphene OS smartphone uses closed source firmware from Google.
You are free to trust it if you want to, but you can’t expect other people to trust it blindly.
So yes, de-googled Androids like Graphene OS are better than stock Androids, but the idea behind Librem 5 has the potential to play in another liga. If I don’t trust the Librem 5 modem I can remove it and use WiFi.
At the same time the modem of a Google Pixel is an integral part of the phone, it will always be there and it could in theory locate you and communicate with someone without the knowledge of the OS.


We could communicate without so many thinly veiled insults, m’kay?


Speaking of cake and rapists. I remember a high-school acting class play 50 years ago. The scene a kitchen with a TV with with a guy on it promoting nothing but a weight loss advert. A girl is in the kitchen dressed as a housewife. A masked man steps in and declares “I am a rapist.” He forces her to eat a whole cake and departs. Then the TV ad resumes. (The guy on the TV advert is has the same voice and hair as the man.)

P.S. Probably the play could not be done today.


Ah OK thanks for answering the questions now I know you’re just trolling here.

Lol, no it just means it’s not mainstream device, I.e. a riskier investment if your bought one. If you think being concerned with privacy elitist then I know for sure that we cannot have a rational discussion.

You’re going to make @Privacy2 head explode with this you elitist!

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I don’t like your phrasing — so I will mirror it so you might understand why I might object. Blanket statements about a group is a bad look and is tribal.

Purism fans just refuse to remember that the Librem 5 also depends on closed source

  1. The firmware for the cellular modem is proprietary.

  2. The firmware for the Librem 5 wifi card is proprietary.

Purism fans just refuse remember that there is a lot of Free software for Android. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_free_and_open-source_Android_applications

Purism fans just refuse to remember that they don’t have a monopoly on knowledge about HW, firmware, drivers, OS’s, and the Free software landscape?

I noted above: The firmware for the WiFi in the Librem 5 is proprietary. Don’t confuse the open source driver with the proprietary firmware.

Also: If you remove the cellular modem, you’ve taken away some phone features — you basically just have a tablet. Temporary removal is only temporary.

Also: In the later Pixels the IOMMU can completely isolate the cellular modem. Maybe read the Graphene FAQ. https://grapheneos.org/faq . There are lots of interesting parts.
For example:

Activating airplane mode will fully disable the cellular radio transmit and receive capabilities, which will prevent your phone from being reached from the cellular network and stop your carrier (and anyone impersonating them to you) from tracking the device via the cellular radio. The baseband implements other functionality such as Wi-Fi and GPS functionality, but each of these components is separately sandboxed on the baseband and independent of each other. Enabling airplane mode disables the cellular radio, but Wi-Fi can be re-enabled and used without activating the cellular radio again. This allows using the device as a Wi-Fi only device.

Where GrapheneOS is different is that they only support devices with good IOMMU support for isolating components. The lack of such support is why Graphene does not
support the Librem 5 ( https://grapheneos.org/faq ):

Devices also need to have decent integration of IOMMUs for isolating components such as the GPU, radios (NFC, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, Cellular), media decode / encode, image processor, etc., because if the hardware / firmware support is missing or broken, there’s not much that the OS can do to provide an alternative.

Here is a link to a GrapheneOS dev that you might want to consider in regard to Librem 5 vs. GrapheneOS: https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux-phones.html

Here is a link to a discussion on reddit that goes over some different topics in regard to the Librem 5 vs. GrapheneOS: https://www.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/pcos2x/would_it_be_possible_to_put_grapheneos_on_the/haltxj2/

This is dumbfounding.
I was very precise what I mean.
The modem and WiFi of Librem 5 can be removed or disconnected from the power supply.
The modem and WiFi of Google Pixel is integrated system on a chip.
You can’t deny this.
You are free to like Google Pixel with Graphene OS. But you can’t expect that everybody shares your enthusiasm.
Especially this is a Purism forum. Not a Graphene/Pixel forum.

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@Privacy2 Good and reasonable questions.

We do remember that. This is about the control. The firmware you listed does not affect the running PureOS. It by design cannot interfere with my RAM or browsing. I can treat it as a part of (already untrusted) cellular / WiFi network. I have an opportunity to replace it later without replacing the whole device (possibly by replacing the M.2 card, when it’s available, or reflashing).

Android does indeed have a lot of free software. But the nonfree software which it runs, removes the control from the user: you can no longer upgrade your Linux kernel, you can no longer be sure that your operations on the device are safe. It has access to everything you do; your only choice is to trust it or throw away your phone.

Yes, but which other companies advance the mobile GNU/Linux as much as Purism? Everyone could do it, but no one is doing it.

Which tablets can run exclusively free software and latest Linux kernel?

This is a software operation. If you do not trust your software (and I do not trust proprietary software from Google or Samsung!), you cannot be sure that “airplane mode will fully disable the cellular radio transmit and receive capabilities”.

On the other hand, I am sure that the hardware kill switch switches off the modem on Librem 5, even if it’s infected with malware.

This is a completely different threat model. I understand people who choose to follow it, but you should not expect that everyone does. I do not trust Google’s firmware, full stop. I prefer to have “less security” but be able to run fully free software. Why can’t I run GrapheneOS on Librem 5? To me it looks suspicious: GrapheneOS effectively promotes Google control over users.


Let’s quote you then. You said:

If I don’t trust the Librem 5 modem I can remove it and use WiFi.

The implication is that you trust the WiFi and its proprietary firmware.

I can’t deny it. But I can force you to tell me why I should care. Or did you not read
that I already showed that this wasn’t a problem. On certain phones (e.g. Pixel 6), the
Wifi and cellular modem can be fully isolated using the IOMMU. Did you read anything I wrote? If you trust GrapheneOS (which is open source) and that the HW (IOMMU) is functioning as documented then one can be assured the cellular modem and wifi can be isolated.

No. But I can expect that they understand their arguments against Graphene+Pixel security and isolation don’t hold water.

Sure. But when you criticize something, it seems fair to respond, right? When
people spout that the Librem 5 is the only choice … it seems it’s my duty to
point out alternatives. Or would you prefer an echo chamber?