Let's crowdfund some development to get PureOS Crimson ready for L5!

Hardware Librem 5
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Let me ask this question that is back on topic for this thread.

This thread is about providing more funds to free up the logjam to get Crimson realeased. Crimson is the PureOS version of Debian Bookworm (v12). Mobian is actually Debian Trixie (v13 right?). If Mobian is reasonably functional on the Librem 5 based on other threads, ie, I could install and run Mobian in lieu of running PureOS. Then, what is the challenge of getting Crimson released? Or, are we better off going with Mobian?

In a previous post Guido did mention he didn’t think that there was really much work left to get Crimson reasonably viable, maybe not to an ideal state.

I’m just intrigued that: PureOS 10.3 (aka Debian 11) works on the L5, PureOS 11 (aka Crimson, aka Debian 12) does NOT work, but Mobian (Debian 13) does work ok?

Am I missing something?

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Mostly the philosophical difference between purism and debian in that debian allows for non-free software in the repositories which makes for different products.

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I think the policy of PureOS is to make a new release based on each new Debian release. PureOS Byzantium was released after Debian 11 was released. Debian 12 was released in June 2023 and after that PureOS Crimson should be released. It should not have taken this long for Crimson to become officially available for Librem 5.

I think that’s how it is with Debian versions vs PureOS versions, nothing strange with that (other than the long delay for PureOS Crimson for L5).

Then there is Mobian which you say use Debian 13 (Trixie), are you sure about that?

Guido did mention Mobian and Debian Trixie but I’m not sure he meant that Mobian itself is based on Trixie, I suspect he meant only that if ou want Trixie then you can start with installing Mobian and then go from there to Trixie.

Edit: found here Mobian/FAQ - Debian Wiki that there is “Mobian Unstable” and also “testing”, perhaps one of those corresponds to trixie.

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@Skalman, my research lead me to believe that Mobian is the latest debian release. Not necessarily stable, but the most current version.

@OpojOJirYAlG, good point. I hadn’t thought about the non-free software. That would make sense.

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I am trying to boot Mobian from an SD card in my Librem 5. I reboot while holding the [volume -] key and briefly see the Mobian logo appear, but after that my screen goes blank and nothing more happens. I let my phone sit connected to power for 6 hours, but still nothing.

Why can’t I boot from the SD card?

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Mobian requires you to flash something to handle booting it. I think TowBoot last I checked. Mobian documentation should have that info

Also, in my experience, PureOS works SIGNIFICANTLY better than Mobian on the Librem 5. I recommend sticking with byzantium until PureOS development starts up again, rather than switching to Mobian.

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I finally managed to flash Mobian, after booting my spare L5 with Jumpdrive. I wanted to check out the alternatives, as it seems development on PureOS have slowed to a crawl in the recent months.

Mobian needs some tweaking before it will work as good as Byzantium I guess, but at least I still haven’t run into that dreadful issue that makes my laptop docks unusable.

I am still running PureOS on my L5 daily driver.

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What in particular works better in PureOS than Mobian?

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Have you tried PostmarketOS as well? trying to see if there is comparison for 3 options.

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No, not yet on Librem 5. I have tried it a while ago on OnePlus 6 though, but it was not as complete then as it is now. I remember it being very fast, though. May try it on L5 one day.

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It’s been a while since I tried Mobian, but I think the audio did not work as consistently on the Librem 5 as it does with PureOS on the Librem 5. Maybe it crashed more often too… I can’t remember exactly, but I remember trying it and immediately going back to PureOS because it worked better.

I tried postmarketOS edge today, and the audio did not work correctly the first time I tried to play something. So, as of today, the most up-to-date postmarketOS does not work as well for me on the Librem 5 as byzantium PureOS does.

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Interested!

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For me also Audio does not work as expected. In- and outgoing calls absolutely silent. There is a problem with the “wys” service that I have already noted in gitlab

Gitlab

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I read this thread. My takeaway is that there seems to be no real agreement on how to get this done. There might be a few people who will contribute far-too-small amounts of money if it is done a certain way. There is no leader and no consensus on how to get this done.

I hate to be a wet blanket, but that’s how I see it. IMO, Crimson for the L5 is slow on coming out because Purism let go of (stopped paying) many of the contract developers (dos, dcz, guido.gunther, … We can’t really tell because Purism no longer lists “Core Team”). Perhaps it’s time to see what the difference is between Mobian and PureOS on the L5.

In the end, one has to ask: What will cause Purism to go back to funding ongoing L5 maintenance? Is that drop in maintenance resources due to them being temporarily cash poor? I don’t know – their recent 2023 financials show profit from a combination of an increase in sales (with a 53% margin) and a decrease in R&D+Expenses (e.g. paid developers, …). Purism still seems to owe people refunds and their stock sale does not appear to me to be going all that well:

Feb 20     226.5K    ?95? investors
Feb 29     240.5K    104 investors
Mar 5      254.9K    107 investors
Mar 7      282.5K    128 investors
Mar 13     291.4K    137 investors
Mar 17     291.9K    139 investors
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There is a leader, but no actionable plan due to reliance on Purism to perform the work on their behalf, which are instead promoting the StartEngine campaign as a method to indirectly fund Crimson.

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I’m pretty new here, so please excuse me if this is already explained elsewhere:

Why do we expect StartEngine campaign funds to be used (directly or indirectly) for the continued development of Crimson and ongoing software maintenance for Librem 5?

I just read through this entire thread, and it is somewhat alarming to me to find out that Purism has stopped paying anyone who is working on PureOS. (Everybody needs to be able to eat, pay rent, etc., and underemployment leads to financial insecurity, which surely makes it impossible for even the most skilled developer to maintain maximum productivity.)

In all of the public filings I’ve seen, Purism does not separate out software development or software maintenance from hardware development costs. Everything seems to just be marked as “R&D”.

It has become evident through the StartEngine campaign and from the postings of Purism employees that the intention of Purism is to pursue directing funds and energy toward creating and selling additional hardware, which implies that software maintenance and development will continue to languish.

I’ve heard suggestions that new hardware will drive the development of software improvements for Librem 5, but why do we believe that? Especially given the following:

  1. All of Purism’s hardware is x86 except Librem 5.
  2. None of Purism’s hardware comes with a cellular modem except Librem 5.
  3. All of Purism’s hardware comes with at least 8GB RAM and 250GB of storage except Librem 5.

Based on these facts (and more) the unfortunate reality is that the Librem 5 will always be harder to develop for than any other Purism product. And without guaranteed software investment focused on the Librem 5, it will never achieve parity with any other Purism product.

Put another way, new hardware == new software !== improvements for Librem 5.

Let’s look at this another way. According to Todd Weaver in the Start Engine campaign comments, “We are not raising anything outside of this Reg CF on StartEngine,” and he also confirms that only 25% of funds will be used for R&D.

At this time, the StartEngine campaign has raised about $324k. 25% of that would be $81k.

So how does that $81k R&D budget get split? Is it 50% Hardware, 50% Software?

If you have about $40k to invest in software, how much of that goes to new device support vs existing device maintenance?

To be brutally honest, $81k for an entire R&D budget is not enough. You cannot even pay one engineer for one year with that money, let alone buy any samples or assemble any prototypes. (I have worked on an R&D team for a small embedded Linux hardware shop before, so I have some idea what I’m talking about here.)

I know this sounds negative, but I don’t want to create a negative vibe here. I really want Purism to succeed, as long as we can all acknowledge:

  1. The StartEngine campaign is not raising enough money to support the meager plan Purism has outlined.
  2. The StartEngine campaign cannot realistically be used to crowdfund any further software improvements for Librem 5.

How can this situation be improved???

  1. I think Purism should explain how they plan to fund ongoing software maintenance.
  2. I think Purism should provide a dedicated mechanism for L5 users to fund L5 software maintenance.

If these issues do not get addressed head on, I’m worried the L5 software update story will end up being worse than the cheapest budget Android phone.

And when it comes time to crowdfund the L6, we need the L5 story to be a success story–not a liability.

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You can wait around until the leader decides to own up to their words at the very beginning of the thread instead of them choosing to defer all responsibility to Purism.

If you do not like relying on that possibility, consider hijacking this thread and assuming the leader’s role in their place.

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Only Purism can assign funds to a given use and only Purism can merge and sign changes into Crimson. Seems they have the majority of the responsibility by design.

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“Let’s crowdfund some development to get PureOS Crimson ready for L5!” suggests community crowdfunding outside of Purism, and forking is always an option with FOSS.

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