Is this thread really devolving into a debate on semantics?
If it is, at least point out that in order for the word “lying” to be accurate there has to be intent to deceive, something that so far hasn’t been demonstrated here, instead of trying to find loopholes to justify one’s displeasure (read: impatience) by demanding that this company adhere to one’s personal dictionary.
If people were half as patient waiting on the phone that’s never been built before during a globally-affecting event that’s never happened before as Kyle is in defining his interpretation of the word “few,” they could actually happily go about their day.
“Backed by shipping data and other estimates through our supply chain we feel are reliable.” This is why we only sent out some shipping estimates instead of all–we had confirmed CPU supply for those orders and feel we can stand behind those shipping estimates as long as some unforeseen future crisis doesn’t hit.
As we secure more CPUs and have confidence in that and all the other timelines that factor into when a particular Librem 5 ships, we’ll send out more estimates.
You can see it that way. You can also see that lots of the community/backers/customers (directly or indirectly ) share the sentiment, that it is a negative surprise to them if “few” takes on to mean “5 or more” (ordering today) or even “7 or more” (ordering in November).
Instead of taking that into consideration (replacing “few” with “several”, “some”, “at least 5”, …), Purism again insists that they did their best to communicate to the best of their knowledge, setting up more upcoming customers for frustration, shared in social media.
The only light at the end of the tunnel here is that “few” is a self-repairing statement. End of Q1 it will (hopefully) be pretty accurate. So, it affects only the new customers of the next 60 days, and of course much less than those of the last 60 days
Did you not read my post near the start of the “few” debate where I pointed out few could be interpreted as up to 11 months, more than the 9 Kyle mentions… I agree 9-11 is very much stretching the definition of few but I also haven’t seen a more useful alternative presented.
Saying Q# of year #### isn’t helpful as that needs constantly updated as time goes on and orders come in and supply chain issues come and go. Saying “in some months” is no better than “in a few months”.
Not providing any estimate at all just prompts for asking for an estimate so isn’t useful either.
I suggested “Q3 or later”. This can stay un-updated until July. And then they should know pretty well.
Incoming orders will not significantly change this. Think about it! If they currently would get about 500 orders per month, the statement (“few months”) would even be more ridiculous, as it would mean the list of backorders would currently (and until May!) not shrink!
Anyway, if Purism could internally agree what “few” really means (e.g. 3-9) they could as well just put their definition on that page. Like
“Delivery will take about 5 to 9 months, check our blog for updates”
But THAT then would actually be a statement that needs to be updated every month…
I see your point, though I think for your example where orders coming in at the same rate as going out makes “a few months” better than “q3 or later” because a few months from the time of placing the order stays consistent whereas in 2-3 months Q3 gets closer but in your example the queue size remains the same giving a worse impression and then has to be updated to q4 or later and then in a couple of months q1 the following year etc.
Now in a scenario where they continue toward shipping parity until reaching shipping parity in q3 that change works in my mind, but I see no meaningful benefit over “a few months” in this regard as eventually a few months becomes actually under a month and exceeding the expectations set on new orders which I view as a positive experience while not requiring a change to saying “a few weeks” getting an unexpected spike in orders that then requires changing back to “a few weeks”. As much as I don’t like saying a few months to describe more than 6 months, I don’t think any of the proposed alternatives ate better.
Splitting hairs on the interpretation of “a few” for me is just the tip of the iceberg.
I ordered in 01.19. So I am no backer who invested his money in an uncertain project with potentially high risk of failing, instead it was pretty clear to me, with a delivery time of 3 months, product is close to finalization. And at that time I was promised (according to Purism homepage) to be delivered in 04.19.
So, 3 months.
I took this information from official Purism homepage and did not deepdive in this or other forums to find out if this might be misleading. Why should I have done? I trusted this information. After all ups and downs, we all are aware of, final statement was: “Shipping starts in 11.20.”
These are 22 months
Now after this delivery time is more than 7 times than what was initially promised, I still do not know when to be delivered. Assuming 08.21 is a correct estimate,
these would be 31 months.MORE THAN 10 TIMES !!! MORE THAN 2 YEARS OF DELAY!!!
@Kyle_Rankin: What do you think? How does this feel? Even with regards to currently listed “a few months” on current homepage?
This refers to backers that have been promised 17 months. I made that explicit at the beginning of my statement that I am not. I could have expected a close to final product when stating to be delivered within 3 months. And now knowing what happende in the meantime reflecting that back to the point in time I ordered.
Honestly, back than Purism had nothing. Nothing. Barely nothing. But still claiming on their homepage that delivery starts in 3 months. This tells a lot to me.
That link explains why it all happened like that. The reasons sound solid to me.
I don’t want to argue here (see above). Let’s assume you are right. But right now Purism has the design, the delivery started, people around the world confirm that the phone works. What else do you need to calm down and wait for your order? Purism do not know when they can do it for reasons not depending on them.
I would say you have a valid grievance. And it is a valid example of purisms optimism biting them, an example of a trend that could be used to show the malice that I personally do not believe is there.
I believe at the time, they hoped the process would go much faster than it did and for the challenges they were facing to be resolved much more quickly.
Does that make your specific instance any less valid? no. Does it make the current communication from purism invalid? not by itself, no.
Pointing to a past statement, that turned out to be untrue, to say a current statement is untrue is a logical fallacy. Using past statements to show a trend and then being skeptical of a current statement because of a past trend is not unreasonable.
I get your frustration, and your skepticism, and it is valid. I’m just not convinced that it shows malice on Purisms behalf not that it shows the current statement to be intentionally misleading and untrue.
I think purism could be much more transparent and upfront with customers and potential customers than they currently are, I just don’t think their intent is malicious.
LOL. Upper case not warranted. Apparently you haven’t been involved in many untidy IT projects …
Given Purism’s record of optimism, I remain uncomfortable with “a few months” as the current published delivery estimate for new orders.
I look forward to the day when shipping parity is reached and only normal delivery delays arise because orders are fulfilled from stock. That is what mainstream customers will expect.
In the meantime … to all 265 posts in this topic: The phone is real (I have mine, as do many others) and we will all get there in the end.
Please do not mix up things. I am not talking about impatience. It is, what it is!
We were discussing the phrase “a few”, while knowing (or at least guessing very good on basis of self / forum created transparency) how long it will last until delivery would start, when ordering now.
Basically the same situation I was in 2 years ago. And it does not seem fair to me for others taking into account to order a device now.
Plus, it somehow hurts how Purism is discussed in other forums (as already mentioned here), while being the only organization or “project” that really brings FOSS in mobile device context ahead. And mirroring that here also to Purism associates is also one of my intentions.
They changed in Nov 2020 the waiting time of new order from 6 months to “a few months”knowing that their “a few months” means at least 6 months. The English language gives “a few months” to be less than 6 months.
EDIT: This is a frustration rant for things the way I see them now:
It’s not the first time they are doing this:
"shipping starts in January 2019" - “but we are not telling you we are talking about a fucking prototype that we’re soldering it manually. Don’t hold your breath to get your 3700th order. Haha.”
"Here are our production batches - choose which one you’ll like" - “but we are not telling you that only Evergreen is a mass-production batch and basically everyone will get it, since the others are very small. Haha, fools! Come on, order some more. Show me the money!”
"We will be shipping 50,000 phones before the end of Q1 2020" -“You guys are so gullible. Yes, order more! Let’s them come, baby!”
"Hey, we release the Evergreen the mass-produced Librem 5. Come and order it, it’s hot and you get it in a FEW months. Haha." - “But we are not telling you that it doesn’t have the necessary certifications (FCC, CE) and when you import it in your country you’re breaking the law. Well we are telling you that, but only after you pre-order it. Yay!”.
If you try to put words into Purism’s mouth, please at least back them with some proof (URL, archived web page, at the VERY least a screen shot). Unsubstantiated claims may be seen as FUD and get you booted off the forum.
Take this as an official warning (which will be reverted if you update the post to remove the aforementioned problem).
Nevermind covid, right? Or are you suggesting purism saw that coming?
Frustration is being criticized here because actual justification for delays are not being taken into account while opinion is insisted on as being valid evidence for argument. There is no actual evidence here in this thread, just feelings and rants.
) share the sentiment, that it is a negative surprise to them if “few” takes on to mean “5 or more” (ordering today) or even “7 or more” (ordering in November).
