Why has Qubes removed the Librem 13 from being Qubes 3.2 certified?
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Last week the Librem 13 v1 had itās own āCertified Laptopā page which was up for many months. Now disappeared.
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Probably because they are going to release Qubes 4.0 soon. Maybe they are no longer interested in advertising certification for Qubes 3.
Iām curious about this too.
I had readied a much longer statement (six pages long, in fact) explaining in great detail the formal partnership and our decision to end it (which in part explains why it took a while for us to respond here) but I shall keep it to myself, not to be used unless we are being attacked in public by this partner (as has been done sometimes in the past, sadly). While the āextendedā statement is purely factual and nothing but respectful, I know that publishing it first might be akin to a provocation. Although I have the Dusk Shard, I know when it is best to simply strive for peace.
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@ArloJamesBarnes
Itās the same page, just before it was changed. You can see it in the web archive :
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I am also interested in this as the Qubes certification was a major reason for me choosing Purism. If itās due to petty politics then so be it, but if itās due to some technical reason Iād like to at least have a brief explanation.
Thanks for your time and hard work!
Looks expensive to certify a laptop. Give them 2 laptops non returnable, pay them monthly. But I will say that brief stint on the Qubes certified page is why I am here as well! Perhaps 3 or 4 users like you and me do not justify the cost! Would be good to know how many users requested qubes and how many use pureOS.
Obviously they have those numbers and probably figured itās not worth it.
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@zak, @thomas.chiantia Iām not sure about the numbers, but I think itās something around 10 users per month requesting qubes to be pre-installed, I may be completely wrong about that figure though.
But regardless of that number, the way their proposal was written, undergoing certification also meant paying for ātechnical consultingā services, and the involved costs were :
- 1,000$/month per product to be listed on the website
- 10,000$/month for āconceptual and planning consultingā
- 35,000$/month for ātechnical consultingā
Also, because one of the above āconsultingā has to do with helping to design the laptop, that means they get shared ownership on the design of the laptop, and if we were to retain the ownership on the design, the above priced would have to āincrease by up to 200% as fair compensation for the foregone value of the IP.ā.
Oh and yes, as @thomas.chiantia pointed out, āgive them 2 laptops of each model for each revision, that will not be returnedā is already somewhat expensiveā¦ but thatās just one of the many costs here. I think there were some other stuff too, like a 10,000$ flat free for providing us with the OEM installation image. And I think that was on top of the existing deal which gives them 100$ per unit sold with qubes preloaded. Overall, not a great deal for a startup company.
Maybe we misunderstood something about the new certification contract, but that was my take away from it, and I believe thatās what everyone at purism understood from it.
soā¦ yeah, like the blog post said, the costs involved are not financially justifiable for us. And yes @zak, the reason for the non certification is not a technical one, but as you can see (I think is pretty obvious from the above) is a financial one. .
@thomas.chiantia I donāt know if @jeff will share the other post he wrote, but other than explaining in details the existing deal with Qubes and how OEM stuff works, I think the core of the data youāre curious about is what I just shared above. Well, his post is plenty interesting but I think Iāve answered the main question here of why we have decided not to get certified.
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Paying $100 per unit (existing deal)? Fine, no problem.
Paying a new $1,000 monthly fee for the listing to remain on the Qubes website? Eh, maybe. Debatable.
But adding the plethora of other costs @kakaroto mentioned, on top of it all? And continuing to deal with a heavily involved process that complexifies our operations and gets us frequent public criticism? Well, at that point, that sudden new proposed ādealā made the partnership no longer attractive for Purism as an organization with limited resources.
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Sorry to hear about the fallout - that is an expensive proposition.
Still looking forward to my laptop. Doesnāt seem like anyone else is certified either.
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Joanna Rutkowska @rootkovska
Replying to @dangillmor
Iām not involved in any laptop engineering/hardening with Purism. All they do is offer compatible laptops for Qubes 3.2, nothing more.
1:59 pm Ā· 22 Jun 2017
Could the new librem13-v2 may be certified anyway (I mean with only one USB host and an Ethernet USB adapter instead of real Ethernet port)?
@bp2: Thatās a weird tweetā¦ and Iām not sure what was her point, or yours in pasting it. Could you expand on it?
@Bruno: certified, I canāt say for sure, but compatible, definitely. There is no requirement that I could see about having a PCIe Ethernet adapter. My understanding is that itās more of an annoyance to users because of having to assign the entire usb controller to sys-net or something like that (from a quick google search), but nothing prevents you from simply using wifi. Either way, ethernet is not part of any certification requirements, so I donāt think it would affect it.
You can see the full requirements for certification here :
I am currently way too busy to be looking at that in any more details but according to the EPT link from that page, it looks like the v2 comes with a CPU that does support the EPT virtualization they require. We do come with coreboot as well and no extra binary blobs other than the qubes 4.x certification allows. However, I am unsure about the DMAR ACPI table. Iād have to check that at a later time (and if itās not created in coreboot, it would be trivial to do it).
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Thanks for the explanation! That certainly puts my mind more at ease at least : )
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hi folks, Michael here from the Qubes OS project.
I was part of the original effort of talking with Purism to get their laptop certified. Since everyone has had some distance now, it is maybe good time to clarify what should be already pretty clear.
First, the Qubes OS project is happy to currently have two manufacturers with certification. Certification is a well-thought-out process with benefits to the manufacturer and to the free-and-open-source Qubes OS project.
The current process makes clear the conditions for certification, in particular that the manufacturer offer to customers the same configuration for at least a year. This point was made explicit out of the experience with Purism and the Librem 13, which went through a number of hardware changes as the company worked to stabilize its laptop offering while at the same time already selling it to end-users.
Maintaining a hardware certification while changing the hardware is not possible, and troubleshooting and re-certifying each new hardware iteration was seen as cost-prohibitive to the Purism team, so they dropped seeking certification for their laptop.
I think for both projects it was a learning experience, and we wish the best to the Purism team.
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