Who are you to judge what people should say or not?
Who are you to judge what you say is appropriate?
Let me tell you who I am.
I am the customer who paid the money for the product.
I am the customer who did not get the product.
I am the customer who wants to cancel his order.
I am the customer who has the right for cancelling the order.
I am the customer who does not want the product.
I am the customer who wants his money back.
Whatever shit this product is I DO NOT WANT IT. Return my money.
Do I have such rights?
So if you think that you are right person, then as you demand the forum rules are being followed now please demand the same rights for me as well from the company. Ask them to return my money. Even if it is the Lamborghini for free I do not want it from Purism, return my money.
Is it clear?
So @Dwaff who are you to judge?
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Letâs keep this topic for your complaint about Purism customers flagging your comments.
Letâs keep the original topic(s) for your complaint about the non-delivery of your product. (You are by no means unique in that regard. You can pick your topic to add to.)
Regardless of the legitimacy of any complaint that you have - there is a good way to express it and a bad way to express it. If a new forum user is this crazy guy who bursts in, yelling and shouting and throwing things (to borrow from @Dwaff), can you understand that that will be perceived by many Purism customers as a bad way to express it?
If I ran Purism, your forum account would have been closed. Simples. Lucky for you I am just a humble Purism customer.
I see that Purism has suspended your account.
This topic would appear to be in the wrong category.
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Perhaps in this hedomiâs case it can be attributed to this, but generally speaking, itâs a bit more complicated than that. At some point the website said that you could cancel your preorder at any time for a full refund. Later they changed this, so that you could only cancel when it was your turn in the queue. Thatâs all fine and well; a company is allowed to change its terms and conditions for new orders. And therein lies the problem: people who ordered before that change found they also couldnât get a refund anymore. This breaks the contract they had with Purism: at the time they entered into the agreement, the conditions clearly stated that they could cancel and get a refund any time they wished (prior to shipping, obviously). As far as I know, Purism has never publicly acknowledged this, nor given any explanation. Thatâs what a lot of the frustration regarding refunds is about.
Furthermore, you joined less than half a year ago, so you may not know the history. But a lot of stuff happened before you joined us. Itâs gotten better now, but there was a time when Purism would keep radio silence for months, leading people to speculate. Then, out of the blue, theyâd send out optimistic emails promising theyâd reach certain milestones by a given date. So you waited anxiously for an update⌠and waited⌠And a week, maybe two after the deadline had passed, youâd finally receive an update that they missed the deadline. Or that time when they creatively redefined the word âshippingâ so they could claim they were âshippingâ the first units, when in fact all they did was receive the first batch of internal test/development units.
Thereâs a lot of history here, and the people who were early with their money are rightfully frustrated. Just because Purism has cleaned up their act a bit and gotten a lot better at communicating doesnât mean the mistakes of the past werenât made, or no longer affect the present. And sure, right now thereâs this pandemic wreaking havoc on the supply lines. But the project was problematic even before someone noticed a weird cough in Wuhan. And the shortage of parts has no bearing on the software, which while having made a lot of progress lately, right now is still on the level weâd expected back in 2018 (and with a questionable battery life to boot).
And one could go on: you pay for a âworking phoneâ in 2018, and in 2020 youâre being asked to help fund the software for it. Supply shortages hit the industry, and suddenly it doesnât matter when you ordered, if you didnât order the more expensive USA version, youâre put on hold as theyâre prioritising that. Which would be somewhat acceptable if thereâs a good explanation why those same parts are available for the US factory but not the Chinese one, but if you then top that off with âbut you can always pay extra to upgrade to the US version and skip the lineâ, thatâs rather questionable. Especially if it then turns out that you arenât able to meet the delivery dates you published on your website for those either.
So yes, there is cause for frustration, even if things are improving lately. And thereâs still stuff going on that makes people rightfully question Purismâs financial situation, and their chances of ever seeing their preorder materialise. Hopefully in 2026 weâll all have our phones and can have a good laugh about this whole affairâŚ
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There is a reality here that has been commented on MANY MANY times. Iâll summarize to make my point easier to digest:
First the issue of building a Linux Phone the way Purism envisioned. Ubuntu tried. They received over 4 million in crowd funding but did not reach their goal. I suspect that what Ubuntu raised was more than Purism has made on pre-order funding for the Librem 5. So was Ubuntu greedy? Nope, they were realistic, and the product history of the Librem 5 is proof of that. There is nothing wrong with Purismâs vision. It is noble in fact. But the truth is, making a pure Linux phone was always going to cost WAY more than ~$500 per phone. They couldnât ask for $1500 in the crowd funding or no one would have supported it, yet that number is probably more realistic of a cost for the phone. Yet Purism has trudged on, raising funds anyway it can. The work they have done, as pointed out by amosbatto, is significant and important. Because of it, Purism is crucial to the mobile movement within Linux. If Purism were to fail, so too, would the dreams of a Linux phone being a fully functional thing this decade.
Management is pretty unethical from what I can tell. Their track record here is the evidence. However the developers are fighting the good fight. I think there is a pretty clear separation there. They each know that what they want doesnât really happen if Purism fails.
The ends simply do not justify the means, and yet this is how Purismâs management is running things.
There are many people who understand all of this and are still here, because Purism really canât fail without being a big problem for all Linux users.
That being said, coming here and throwing a fit despite being asked to desist is not something anyone is entitled to, as Dwaff has clearly articulated MANY times.
You either except the reality of the situation, or you use your means to get away and recover what you can. Coming to the Purism forums with the intention of slandering the company more, just doesnât make sense. The people who obviously support the company are going to be here. Go to Reddit and create a new cult of Purism angst. You might be successful there. (Iâm not talking about hedomi here exclusively, but in general to all these kinds of threads. I really donât wish to argue with hedomi, and simply will not.)
I am curious though if other forum members see things this way?
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got your point , and partially agree.
users have right to be frustrated.
Purism approach to the problem is far from something acceptable.
especially changing rules of a game during a game.
in EU from law perspective such change of policy would not work backward in time. so order from time before will not be affected i donât know how it works in US, but rule that law donât work backward in time is Ancient rule.
so technically Lawsuit is easy to win.
etc.
However,
this forum, any forum isnât a place to unload frustrations. here we are discussing issues with software , hardware , other related topics.
opening over and over topic with message : âfuck purism, purism is worst company everâ , other similar stuff, will not change single thing.
also take for a review number of users.
how amny of us actually have librem 5 , librem 14 , and are happy, and how many users here complains.
itâs small number, and most of them doing it in a way that not break rules of forum, with respectâŚ
i was one of them, but happy day came and i got my long waited laptopâŚ
i see nothing bad in a fact that people demanding they rights, what is a problem is a form of those complaints.
That would entirely depend on what you mean when you say things like âthrowing a fitâ or âslanderingâ, as thatâs subjective. Taken at face value, I agree with what you say. However, some people would call any form of criticism âslanderâ, and would classify any expression of frustration as âthrowing a fitâ.
I believe that you have the right to ask questions, and express your frustration when you donât get the answers you have a right to. And having invested your money, you certainly have a right to answers to questions pertaining the unilateral changes in agreement, or inquiries into the cause of delays vs. the promised delivery dates.
You canât hold a company accountable if youâre not allowed to ask questions or express your frustration at them when they stonewall you or fail to live up to their part of the agreement.
Yup, I concur.
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Anyone who still comes to complain (in any form, respectful, flaming or caustic) still has an interest in the situation. When people do not react at all, they donât care anymore, and this is long-term poison to any project.
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To be fair, I donât think anyone is saying âgimme the phoneâ. Weâve all PAID for our phones. And they were supposed to have been delivered YEARS ago. And weâre kind of fed up with Purism constantly lying to us - and now with this attitude.
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That must be the most condescending and insulting post I have read in a long time. I donât think you know how old @hedomi is, but he is not conducting himself in an immature manner. But you are. Hence your comment about âgrowing upâ is totally out of order, and shows only your bad and totally unacceptable attitude towards a customer. The content of the rest of your message does not even merit a response, it is so obviously out of order, and wrong. Iâm not sure whether you are a Purism employee or not (your handle name suggests that you are), but if you are, any decent CEO would fire you.
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You donât have the right to ask anyone to leave any more than they have the right to ask you to leave if itâs not your bar.
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I agree with what you say to a large extent, but when you say âManagement is pretty unethical from what I can tellâ I think you are too hard on them.
If you say Purismâs management is unethical, then please explain who is more ethical.
There are plenty of people sitting on the sidelines complaining. Thatâs easy, if you donât do anything then you donât risk being accused of any wrongdoing. But is it ethical to sit on the sidelines and not actively try to change things? I donât think so. In my opinion, Purismâs management is more ethical than many of those who are complaining.
Then there are those who do something, but what they do is much easier and has much smaller impact and smaller chances of fundamentally changing the world, compared to what Purism is doing. Is it more ethical to stick to working on such comparatively harmless, easy projects? I donât think so.
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The poster youâre replying to is not a native speaker, so keep in mind that âgrowâ and âgrow upâ are easy to confuse.
Purism staff can be recognized by the label next to the name, not the name.
You donât have any more right to express your opinion than Dwaff does - itâs not your bar either.
You seem to be assuming the worst of the others, much like hedomi did. If you continue fanning the flames here, you may receive a timed ban too. So please be a bit more lenient.
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Iâm not trying to say Purism is evil. Iâm saying some of their advertising and handling of funds is unethical. Heck Iâd go so far as to same some of the early production wasnât really ethical. But that is neither here nor there at this point. My hope is that they have learned, even if only because of customer outrage.
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Purism has deleted a perfectly reasonable post by me. Thatâs because they have no answers. Rather than face difficult truths or complaints by unhappy customers, they prefer to just make us disappear. Purism speaks for itself with its actions, much louder than any of its customers who are complaining on these forums. Well, thatâs fine. Just so long as you understand that when you wonât listen to your customers, all thatâs left to us is to instruct lawyers and make complaints to the regulators.
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No, itâs because it was only reasonable if you consider breaking forum rules about insults reasonable. You were told you can post that again without the insult.
There were no insults in my post, nor did it break any forum rules. Iâm happy for you to share the post so that everyone can see that. Iâm not going to post it again. Iâve already made my position about my next steps clear.
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Shouldnât this thread be under the âSite feedbackâ category?
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There are things that I like and things I donât like about Purism. But I have to speak in favor of the moderation of this forum. A few times I insulted others on purpose. I was warned. Fair enough. A few times my comments were flagged by the community. If I want to fit in with the community, I guess I need to change that behavior. Fair enough. I posted recently with the suggestion that all of Purismâs Executives should go to jail if they dinât disclose more information to people who make pre-orders. That post is still there. So to me, this forum seems fair, more fair than Purismâs marketing tactics.
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