And that makes it acceptable in your mind for the party asking for funds to change the terms of the agreement after they receive the funds to be more in their favor?
I’m with you that there are inherent risks in crowdfunding that are more than those in pre-ordering which are yet more than making a direct purchase; but I don’t see how those inherent risks change how terms of an agreement should be kept, or only changed via a new mutual agreement. Changing a policy going forward is one thing, changing it retroactively is quite another.
Also not everyone here is a part of the crowd funding. Pre-orders before a given date also were originally under an agreement of receiving a refund promptly and not “when it’s your turn in the queue to receive a phone”. So saying “crowdfunding is different from purchasing” doesn’t acknowledge that a pre-order is a purchase and not crowd funding.
I don’t personally comprehend why someone that was a part of the crowdfunding would only now (recently) be looking for a refund as that just doesn’t compute for me. I don’t have to understand that to understand no one should be finding out that the agreement changed from what they had agreed to into the other parties favor when the other party is making the change unilaterally.
The phone shouldn’t be returned, but rather never shipped since that’s when the refund should be handled. This does allow for Purism to perform the refunds throughout the order fulfillment process and not end up with a bunch of extra phones which is a good thing. This could theoretically result in more orders being “fulfilled” in a given time period than “normal” if there is a spike in refunds at a given section of the orders (this seems unlikely to me, but a theoretical possibility).
I think this ultimately boils down to resource allocation for purism. Instead of dedicating x% of staff time to dealing with refunds regardless of place in line they can focus on emptying the queue and more easily see the progress and remaining orders.
I personally don’t agree with some of the choices along the way, but I do see the end location as a desirable one for Purism.
I haven’t seen evidence that the terms, as they applied to the crowdfunding, did change. I’ve used the wayback machine to look at the terms and conditions specified for the crowdfunding.
Definitely true. However my comment, that was quoted in the reply, was specifically about crowdfunding - and that is because the OP is a crowdfunder.
That’s what happens when someone necros a comment from 14 days ago. It gets taken out of context.
I hope you are right and that this is not one and only iteration of purism phone the world will see. The situation lately eerily reminds me of Neo Freerunner. The difference being, openmoko went all-or-nothing into the phone business. Purism is more branched out. But, all these delays make me doubt their resilience.
You are definitively right that there is a huge potential demand, but I wonder if the consumer base for such a product is willing to bank on Purism to deliver. And, again, once they finally send out the preordered phones, will they be able to sustain their efforts? Technology moves quickly, how will they ever be able to catch up given the constraints?
I sure wasn’t part of crowdfunding, and I realize the conversation started there, but the bigger theme here is a company that is putting people off by product delays, broken commitments, weasel words, and hanging onto the money of people who don’t want anything to do with them, or, in my case, just nervous because of what I am hearing.
I did send in my cancellation. Let’s see how they handle it when I get my reply. I’m so close to the 7-day window I have to check what time it is. I hope I have
For the record, I am sure the Librem computer is wonderful, which is why it was my first choice, I would be happy to own one, I would recommend one – but for the delivery problems – and I support many of the goals and values of Purism.
I also really support all of you on this forum, whether you agree with things I say or not. You are very smart, admirable people, and after I (hopefully) straighten out this order, I may try to still get my hands on a machine. I just cannot get trapped in a situation where my money is gone and I have no idea when I will get it back, or get something for it.
I’ll be back to report on my situation. Enjoy your weekends.
I wasn’t sure, whether i should post here again. I have good news, since the money arrived in my account yesterday. On the other hand i would not have wanted to further fuel this thread.
So, yeah, after more than a year, and a minor shitstorm started in a few forums, i got my refund. All in all i made a loss of about 30 Euro (which is probably due to the exchange rate), but that is fine with me.
I hope the best for all of You - whether You wait for Your phone, or for Your refund. I’m outta here as i wouldn’t ever want to be involved with anything concerning Purism, again.
That thinking is somewhat foreign to me. For “nice to have” items, I wait a month before ordering them, with the idea that if I no longer want it after a month, then it was not that important. I did not follow this rule for the Librem 5 because I wanted a Linux phone for a while, had experience with crowd funding similar items, researched the specs, and had purchased one of their laptops already.
As a new customer, I was glad for the words of warning; the anxiety I felt had already been stirring strongly. I thank benko, and a couple of others who posted pre-orders "for sale,” for doing me a favor.
It’s one thing to be an early backer of a Broadway show; you know it’s a gamble. I got into this only knowing there was a backlog of orders due to availability of hardware during this time. I didn’t have the full backstory. If a red and yellow notification had informed me, “You are participating in a (albeit reasonable) speculative crowdsource project as a “backer”; we do not consider this transaction to be an “order” or a “backorder” but a “pre-order” of a product no one has received yet; we have already missed our February target, and you will take your place in line behind other crowdsource backers who have been on board since cir. July 2020” — I probably would have walked away in admiration of the effort, purchased another brand, and put the Librem at the top of my list to start setting money aside for.
Early backers should be congratulated but should not begrudge a bit of anxiety tossed on their doorstep. They will get over it and can celebrate all the more when they take delivery of their machines.
I am thrilled to be entering the world of Linux and the great communities of users, enthusiasts, late-comers and early adopters. I am making friends, I want to make more, and I am not burning any bridges. I’m just taking a faster path to getting my eager fingers on a machine, and plan to come back to cross this bridge before too long.
Keep up the bucket brigade, and in the unlikely event of a worst-case scenario: That’s show biz, kid.
“Past performance is no guarantee of future results” By the time that you get yours, there will be more devices out there, and Purism will likely be able to ship from stock, or at least, much closer to being able to, but who knows what the demand will be.
But most importantly, understand what you are buying, what your needs will be, and expect to wait a long time.
The same reply for me and I am in the same situation. I ordered my phone in Dec 2018. When my shipping position for Evergreen came closer in Dec last year, I did not get the phone and I also noticed several people who ordered later did get their phone. I asked for a refund and my refund request was met with a response that order is due to be shipped Q1 2021 and hence I’d get my refund in Q1 2021. Come Q1 2021, and it’s Q2 now, there’s no refund. On enquiry, they said they would give me store credit instead of refund. Suddenly I am even later in the shipping queue (and they do not have a daye) and they cannot give me a refund and it would take months before I reach my position in the queue.
I need the refund, so I have decided to wait. What really bothers me is the vague replies and lack of transparency throughout the process and the unfairness of it all.
I’ll never buy from them again. And I hope I get my refund. Let my story be a warning to others.
Yeah, I understand that, but how could @ssn have expected to be receiving an Evergreen at that time, having ordered it in Dec 2018, over a year after the crowdfunding campaign.
And I don’t know how anyone who ordered even later than @ssn could have received an Evergreen. Not saying it didn’t happen, but maybe they could cite them for us…?
Maybe I’m just not understanding what he/she is saying.
There were at least few articles in News and Events at store’s front page last year and before that announcing when our phones and which batches would be shipped, the plan, etc. So assuming that where he got his expectation for his position to receive shipment. I just visited News and Events to find articles and post em here but couldn’t find them. Seemly they’re already omitted, including some other unrelated news I recalled reading before.
