It seems like other people got their refunds. Are you asking for a refund before the phone is ready to ship? To me it looks like you just got an extra option to shop for something else in the store if you decide to get out now.
Please consider to accept the order when it’s ready and then sell it here.
In my book crowdfunding is above all some kind of contract. Sure, its conditions may differ from those for a purchase in an offline shop or in a „regular“ online shop. They may also differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, and from business partners to business partners. BUT in a mutual contract both parties know in advance what the conditions are and agree that they are valid.
When i backed the L5 campaign the terms of service clearly said that i was entitled to get my money back any time before the item was delivered. It may not be overly clever by a company to state them as such, but that is what Purism did. So, this is the basis of my backing the campaign. Nothing else. No moral or ideological or „logical“ assumptions about the concept of crowdfunding, but the terms of service given when i clicked the button to buy.
To change these terms of service later and apply them retroactively is wrong on so many levels. Morally it turns a mutual thing into a one-sided endeavor. I spend my money, and afterwards am subjected under whatever whims comes to Purism‘s (or, rather the persons‘ responsible there) mind. Economically this is bad for the working of markets as it undermines the transparency which is necessary for trust in them. Logically it is clear that their is no natural (in a sense of „universal“) kind of contract, but contracts are based on laws and what both parties can agree on. If a party claims it will be able to refund me it is only logical to assume that they can do so, unless i have reason to believe otherwise.
And why should i now have the hassle to care for a resale of the phone? The deal says: You want to step back from our mutual (!) contract – You can do that and get Your money back. As easy as that. Why should i now accept to have to sell the product after my stepping back from the contract? This is not my business. This is the business of Purism. I don’t sell phones. They do. Well, sort of, at least.
There were two options given when i clearly asked for a refund. Either i could pick a coupon or cancel the demand for the refund and get my phone delivered.
Since my demand for the refund in 2020 i haven‘t gotten any mails from them. So, i can only assume that my phone is ready to ship as they said they would ship in accordance with the sequence of orders, and several people who ordered way after me (17/09/16) already got their phone.
Assumptions then 
Please just sell it when you get it. It’s a hassle yes but it will make someone very happy.
I talked to several lawyers now. It is clearly illegal, but it is not practical to move to a small claims court as a foreigner. One has to be present in person which all in all would cost me more than the phone.
Assumptions only if You assume that they stepped back from the next given. Namely their statement of first come, first served.
Is this potentially covered by your legal protection insurance, if you have one?
Why not trying?
First come, first served is generally true but it seems like some orders are a bit ahead and some a bit delayed. Maybe they sort on when the payment was cleared by the bank?
Nope, only Europe. And even if it were the costs would exceed the amount in dispute. already checked that.
First of all: how long should that have taken? Then: they could have said so instead of offering me to send me a phone.
I don’t know and I don’t want to add more speculations.
Or is it that we are complex, as this Forum guests (members)? And, sometimes I’m hard to Purism because I do not understand every step, hardware and software related, but I know this takes many experimenting failures, read hard work to get/put everything together as they promised in their many (particular) way-ahead tasks and projects (being legal at the same time).
Many decades ago (if helps explain what I’m about) I realized I cannot allow everyone to be my “friend” (organize my daily life), that I need to change my posture toward “everyone” and recognize who my friends are or might take place as one(s) beside myself (as my comrades, as myself being, perhaps, just far away within safe distance from the required work, read within logistics background, providing money for a few tools/toothpicks only):
In short, and as a whole, I accept most of the people that are working for Purism as my friends (and I’m not alone here that share my mind) and I don’t mind (actually opposite) having this great opportunity to leave my small investment with them as is … with them, as long as I can decide which product I like to receive, have delivered and when (in future of course, as we are mostly here about better future for everyone that care as here considered related, therefore dialog, what they didn’t delivered, when and if they as manufacturer used emergency brake, took pause in order to change direction, etc., within past, I respect too … as Purism self explained many times that this or that whole product or part isn’t ready or adequate to build anything/further upon, invest many hours of workload on top of something important (when course of action changed or needed to be changed by internal or external factors, results, … ).
Same … there where development proofed that move forward, and there is confirmed a lot of human energy and knowledge behind what Purism did, do and is about to achieve (for those that care about, and as from them advertised as already achieved or about to be achieved).
What I actually want (as I don’t want or need to be refunded) is that every working day that team called Purism put into development of their products, that they, Purism, as my comrade, for both: us interested in what they do and for them, mark them, those hard working days, as successful (and I’m able to catch this, understand every effort they do as such, as a whole, for the community that trust them)!
Sorry, mate, i don’t get Your point. Maybe it is a problem with my understanding of English. I read Your post twice now, and don’t see in how far it refers to the topic.
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I would rather that they skimp on policies for the enthusiasts and keep up the design and quality at a reasonable price.
I totally agree. But the skimping should happen before the purchase then, not retroactively, right?
He’s basically saying that Purism isn’t malicious, shit happens, and when trying to fund and build a big new thing, issues come up that affect more than just the people trying to make the big new thing; thus, they’re not trying to cheat you out of your money, it’s just that everyone involved is in a bit of a tricky spot that has more than the usual amount of uncertainty involved.
@Quarnero correct me if I’m wrong.
If there ever is a tragedy that was Purism it will be the many people behind the scenes working very hard to bring this dream to fruition. It is because of them that I am still here. Mistakes can happen. To err is human. I think one of the problems is just how loosely connected everyone is. There is a warehouse in southern California, some business folk in San Fran, and then random people just spread out all over the globe.
Things like what happened to me with my Librem 13 and other people should have totally been caught because those things are damning to the company image. Trust is paramount to the crowd they are specifically trying to cater to. Had they stuck with honestly from day one, they would have endeared themselves to us in way that would permit a lot more slack than they are getting now.
I think the stuff with refunds is tough, and there is no easy way out with it.
Interesting take. I read it as saying interpersonal interactions are complex and a philosophical take on how they work. Maybe I missed something.
My experience this far has been in line with what you’re saying, in that Purism does tend to do things with the best intentions in mind while working withing the constraints of the moment.
My frustration, generally, stems not from the actions themselves but rather the communication around them. (And before mentioning purisms communication derails yet another thread if anyone reading this wants to have that conversation please fork to a new thread.)
In this particular case I’m a bit torn. On one hand I’m not a fan of someone trying to pull out after 3+ years (in part because the party that was paid presumably paid taxes on the money paid and a refund of the money would be a net loss not a net neutral). On the other I’m not a fan of a party to an agreement changing the agreement in their favor and applying it retroactively.
I do think this could be being handled better by Purism, but I also am missing information. If 0.001-0.002% of people are requesting refunds, that’s very different than if 30-50% of people are. I’m not speculating what that number actually is just giving hopefully absurd enough and diametrically opposed enough examples to make a point; without knowing more information it’s difficult to say how reasonable purism is being.
I’ve just asked them whether the options they gave me were additional, or instead. Maybe some implication of the option of getting my money back was merely lost in translation. I’ll let You know.
I would say that very people are really “malicious”. Most scams happen because someone is in whatever need, and sees no other way of dealing with it than to rip someone else off. Unfortunately scamming is not a state of mind, but a category of actions. And if You act like a scammer You are a scammer.
On one hand I’m not a fan of someone trying to pull out after 3+ years (in part because the party that was paid presumably paid taxes on the money paid and a refund of the money would be a net loss not a net neutral).
Same here. But after years of being lied to, i had to draw the line.
If 0.001-0.002% of people are requesting refunds, that’s very different than if 30-50% of people are.
If the latter is true they should maybe think about what they have done wrong. No, they should have thought before that in order to prevent it. A situation like this can really harm a business.