I expect the funding situation to improve when the phone can be purchased from stock and they have a few more things available. Right now, they are working with funds from people willing to buy something that does not completely exist. They now have code for group chat and MMS. Their camera development has progressed far enough for recognizing QR codes. When they add the PLS8 modem for VoLTE and a protective case is available, I will be buying at least 1 more. There are probably many other people waiting for progress on certain things to be made before placing more orders.
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From https://puri.sm/posts/librem-5-news-summary-january-2021/:
We are also scaling the team up even further not just to address the order backlog, but also the steadily increasing demand we see for Librem 5s each day, so future manufacturing runs will be much larger and we will be able to process through orders more quickly.
Based on that, my logic expects them to be more than happy to refund early backers who paid only $600 (even encouraging them to ask for refunds :), so they can have the phones for others who paid more than that. Instead, they do things opposite: lets you with no choice but to take the phone. Strange…
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Maybe I did, I dunno. It may be that you think more deeply than I do.
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Rather, it is a categorization of actions, and it requires knowledge of intent to make that categorization. Thus far, you have presented none.
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Your logic sounds fundamentally flawed.
That’s possible…
Well, how would You describe changing terms of service to the disadvantage of customers and applying them retroactively? Something that is clearly illegal in the US by the way (look up Douglas vs. Talk America (the revisited ruling) and Rodway vs. Safeway Inc).
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I didn’t know they had MMS working, do you have a link/more info on that?
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Did they, or are they doing what has been stated and holding your investment (you’d said you were one of the initial backers) for what it is?
Yeah, I think their words and actions do not align with each other. They are trying to “fake it till you make it”, a la Theranos (which we know didn’t go too well). But at least Purism has delivered on some of their promises.
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Bit of a stretch, don’t you think?
Did the refund policy apply to the crowdfunding phase? I agree it’s really sleazy (illegal, even) to try to change it retroactively, but at the same time you really shouldn’t be contributing to a crowdfunding project and expect to be able to get that money back. You’re investing in a product that hasn’t even begun to be developed, and you’re paying in part to develop that project. Once that development has started, you’ve already gotten part of what you paid for.
If Purism had the refund policy for the crowdfunding phase, that’s on them and they should honor it, but in my opinion the refund policy for a crowdfunding project should always be, “if we don’t hit our goal, full refund, but if we do hit our goal, no refunds.”
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At the time i backed the campaign the tos with regards to a refund read: “If, for any reason, you want to cancel your order before it was shipped, we will issue a full refund.” There was no further differentiation.
When i asked for a refund in 2020 they had just complemented that with “If you want to cancel an order for products that are in the process of crowdfunding or pre-order, we will issue a full refund once the crowdfunding/pre-order of the product is completed and all pre-orders are shipped.”
The changes are well documented in the wayback machine, and in several screenshots i have taken (just in case the tos move somewhere else).
So, i think i can expect getting my money back. If these are the terms of service under which this crowdfunding campaign is to be conducted that may be unusual, but that still is how it is.
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I asked for clarification whether these options were instead or additional to the option of getting my money back. In advance i declined any other option, and if that was an „instead“ once more asked for the legal grounds this was based upon.
Shortly thereafter i got an email that did not refer to mine but told me that my turn in the queue was reached (with only three weeks delay approx.) and they would get back to me for the refund in the next few days.
Let‘s see whether this really happens, or it is an attempt of calming down the buzz i‘ve just created in several forums.
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Refund of an existing product that you could buy at that time i.e. normal Terms of Service.
You should refer to the Terms of Service for the crowdfunding campaign.
Which do allow you to get a refund once you actually have your phone (but returning the phone would be at your cost - so it is a full refund minus a bit).
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There was no other tos-page. And even now the (general) tos-page refers to the terms for crowdfunding.
If You know another one i am happy to see the link (and run it through the wayback machine, just in case).
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No, I got that from the wayback machine. The campaign page is long gone today.
It‘s not that long gone. At least the discussions about denied refunds already raged, when it was still online. Nope, no mention on it about alternative tos.
Edit: Purism did refunds until the change of tos in 2020, btw. And even if the terms You state would have been given there, what would be the difference in a practical way? Two parcels would have to be sent around the world (in my case) only creating unnecessary pollution and costs. That‘s all.
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Yes. They are too generous. They didn’t have to.
Yes. You can negotiate with them not actually to send the phone, as a simplification over what was actually stated in the Campaign Terms of Service at the time.
Anyway, since none of us speaks for Purism, I don’t think much more can be achieved with further posts.
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