Today is April 30th. Dogwood expedition begins tomorrow


It’s not just about overcommitting and not delivering on time. This is obviously a chronic, a constant at this point that I’ve come to regretfully expect - Purism’s timetables are not be trusted. They are indicative at best. Which is a shame and silly leadership mistake that has been let to fester and repeat which erodes trust and good will. Once or twice but… sheesh.

Though, I think that’s just half of it. If they’d have someone doing and managing communications (this is an area that has specialists for example for product launches and community building) this could have all been avoided and they’d get a lot more press and interest. But as it stands, no, that aspect is overlooked and ignored - we only get marketing and random info from people giving it while doing other things. Even from marketing communications standpoint this has been a waste of a lot of potential throughout the last year. There is no coordination, no managing of expectations, no clear communication of development or steps, no coherent whole or deepdives to specifics (recently), no consistent story/narrative, no clarification of rumors or errors (mostly), no engagement (beyond tech support), no organizing of community etc. Even the message has become less clear and seems to not match what the other side wants to hear so it’s not received. [Btw. when things get hard, a good guideline is, you should always over-communicate rather than communicate less]

It’s almost seems like now, desperately, there is a feeling that a perfect (or just working) L5 would save the situation and make everything right, but I doubt that. It will help and we all will probably feel a bit better but no matter how much work or miracles there happens behind the scenes, it’ll amount to very little. Feels almost like analogy of a bad marriage: workaholic thinks he/she is doing everything for the family only to find out the relationship is hollow and distant - we just want to hear about their day: feelings, ideas, setbacks and not just get the physical reward. [sorry, that was bad, comical] This is what happens, when you choose to have a community: it’s not one sided, it needs work and resources and it’s now lacking. The end product does not justify the means fully. There can be no support or real reward or sense of wonder and victory if the troubles, daily grinds, mistakes and the lows, the effort but also the reasonings behind them are not known, but I suppose it takes trust and effort to share.

And yet we stay in this. Is it Stockholm syndrome? :thinking: A cognitive fallacy perhaps - we think we have too much invested to back out now? Optimism: “…change is coming”? Probably a mixed bag. Some could be greedy for a new toy, some like the denial of pleasure and the wait and the anguish (maybe get help? :slight_smile: ) and some explain it away in some other way. We could be just stubborn. Or delusional [well, L5 is somewhat aimed at the security paranoid :wink: ]. Rationalize it any way you want, but we [not sure if this should be community or customers] are not getting the best care here. Of course, it’s open for argumentation [and has been argued here] what is reasonably to be expected and how much each side is responsible for any expectations for anything in this. Yet, I still don’t think it’s just about the psychology of it but also… math. There is something to gain (we hope) and so far (most) have calculated that this wait-time and uncertainty is a price that we are (grudgingly) willing to pay on top of the money. And that may be one point to see: the wait-time may be necessary and forgivable but the uncertainty is unnecessary and badly handled. These are not the same thing. I hate the unnecessaryness of it as well as the wasted potential and opportunities [this will have financial effects to Purism in the long run]. Refusal to change is not helping either.

And at this point, I recognize, I may be just rambling and venting, so I’ll stop. One way to manage wait is to log off, come here less regular and read a book.


You’re exactly right. The reason I’m still in it is because purism is no longer refunding any monies. I backed the Kickstarter in sep ‘17 and hung on but with the events of Covid I finally decided having the money was more necessary than the agonizing wait for a product that may never arrive. I have been very vocal against purism for a couple reasons. One they did it to themselves and two the community that refuses to hold purism accountable for their actions. At this point momentum will take over and I’m weary of the situation so I guess I’ll just step back and if I receive a surprise package in the mail one day, GREAT!!! If not, at this point I expect that.


[Btw. when things get hard, a good guideline is, you should always over-communicate rather than communicate less]

This is unfortunately part of human nature. I think many people will have encountered a situation, perhaps at work or school, where someone is given a task but struggles with it. Instead of asking for help, they try to solve their problems on their own because they worry that they will be judged for “failing”. The task doesn’t get done, people get impatient, eventually someone either steps in and offers help or the person leaves.

One thing I probably asked before - maybe back before the first phones were shipped - is what kind of communication people want from Purism as a whole, not from employees? I am told that people love reading about the software updates, but I feel that people here in the forums are more focused on more tangible things, like when phones will ship, what the state of production is. Those are issues that developers can’t (or maybe aren’t supposed to) blog about.

While there is a perceived gap in communication, people will always find ways to speculate about the company and its products. This is unfortunate but understandable.


In the context of this topic - yes.

April 9 was the last comment from Purism on Dogwood, indicating further comments “soon”.

Has Dogwood started shipping? If no, is there an updated ship date? and are the delays mundane or more troublesome?

Not that I am in Dogwood. Evergreen for me.


For me, the most important question is not to know the exact date of shipment of the Dogwood batch but rather whether the new design of the motherboard has been validated or whether it needs to be reworked (and in which proportions).


“We’ve received our internal Dogwood batch :tada: and will be sharing news of the hardware changes and improvements to performance, battery life and thermals soon! #Librem5

That was said by Purism on April 9. Purism does not need to do anything different than to follow its own words. Why is it you guys don’t say a word about this now? Obviously we are interested in knowing how it is going. I don’t care if in the end of your speech you say it’s going to take more time to make the phone work. Just say what you said you’re going to say. Why is it so hard to do? Is it that bad?
Can I trust “updates forever” from Purism on the L5? Or should we pray for a Linux community to take over this phone project and make it work under a Linux distribution other than PureOS once is on our hands? How can we trust a company with that kind of behavior?


Let’s not exaggerate, I trust purism and the goal they want to achieve and absolutely of the employees who write and also make wonderful articles here.
I am critical of the way society communicates which, in my opinion, is far from optimal.


or maybe it’s the lockdown smell getting the best of us :mask:

60 ghz 5G FTW !:scream::crazy_face::weary:


So it is a “society communication” problem. I don’t know why but that brings Fred Flintstone to my kind. On the other hand, do you know how things are going with Ubports and Postmarket people regarding the L5? They were supposed to be working on this project as part of a community. We were told to be free of running UT or Postmarket OSes if not comfortable with PureOS. I am afraid we’re going to be stocked with PureOS for a long while wether we like it or not, unless we are savvy enough to make the move ourselves. I am not that good so… am I exaggerating? Maybe is just me…


the thing is we’re facing a major economic disruption and some of the things happening behind the curtain are disturbing to say the least … would you really blame them if some of those “savvy enough” decided to take a step back ? and tend to other more immediate dangers ? what if - what if ? …


That’s for Purism to say. It is a communication issue, an eternal one. You are in the “what if” mode and there’s no need for it. I strongly believe Purism owes información to the crowdfunding community when there is a need for one. It is not unrealistic to expect information about critical issues that are coming my way like that question or yours if I am not mistaking you: what battery are we getting with Dogwood or Evergreen? You wouldn’t have to ask that question if Purism took the time to keep us up to date about the battery issue. BTW this one is a horrible problem. People who got Chesnut were supposed to get a more powerful battery but something happened and I am afraid they are stuck with the wrong one. I didn’t see any communication saying to these people the battery is going to be replaced by Purism. The other thing is the heating issue. I wouldn’t like to get my phone having that problem still to be solved. I would prefer to wait but I need to know what to expect. About the savvy ones I mean supporters like me who get their way around Linux but cellphones are a different world. I wouldn’t care if I knew enough to kill PureOS and make that phone work with UT or something else. I don’t feel comfortable with the idea of depending on Purism. Not with its communication problems.


Here great updates about battery issue:


this is very good :muscle::muscle::muscle:


Has Dogwood started shipping? If no, is there an updated ship date? and are the delays mundane or more troublesome?

It has not started shipping yet. Unfortunately, I’m not able to give you an update on the release schedule. You will have to wait for an official update from someone who can provide that information and any other related details. Sorry about that. :frowning_face:


that was me being silly and lazy at the same time :sweat_smile: i seem to have vaguely remembered something about it a while back but couldn’t quite remember if it was in a video pre-overview or here on the Purism forum … so i ended up basically just bumping the thread and making people remember about it …

this is quite funny since the whole world seems to have this problem these days … but yeah it would be nice if it was NOT a problem …


I agree that this is a problem, and I would rather that Purism be less optimistic in its timelines and use more approximate dates like “Q2” instead of “End of April” in its announcements.

I used to work at tech company where this happened all the time. Every software update and every new feature always took longer than we expected. The clients hated us because every date we gave them was wrong.


So Purism aren’t refunding money? I bought into this with the hope, and expectation, that for me in Australia that the L5 would ship with a modem that would give me what I need in regional Australia. As it is now I don’t have that confidence. Did I not read when I paid that a refund was possible up until when the phone ships?

There have been no reviews singular to Australia to let me know if it will work where I live. This is very distubing for me as I have been waiting for some news regarding a suitable modem (they did say ages ago that the required variant being available was a " high probability"). My current phone is just about fucked and Evergreen, where I am, is being shipped who knows when. I had been considering getting a refund and going with any number of available alternatives.

I did read that about the refund didn’t I? I’m worried about what appears to be changing rules that could land me with a $1000 aud phone of limited use. How us this behaviour ok?!


For what it’s worth, I’ve only seen it stated by a (or maybe multiple) forum user(s) that they’re not giving refunds/accepting cancellations. If you are dead set on cancelling I would reach out to them via email for an official statement over hearsay on the forum.

I’m not saying the user(s) is(are) lying, but rather that it may not be a simple yes/no answer that applies to everyone, also a pre-order is, to my knowledge, different than backing a crowdfunding campaign so there may be different rules depending on when/how a person gave money to Purism regarding the Librem 5.

Just a thought.


I don’t intend to get a refund and I don’t even think about it :slight_smile: but I would like to understand where you saw this news, the sources please?


I presume you mean where it has been said that they’re no longer offering refunds. Most recently (only?) Here in this thread.

Note this is from a user not a Purism employee which is why I say to reach out to Purism in my post.

Being as admsjas mentioned being a part of the original crowdfunding campaign that may impact their ability to request a refund as opposed to someone whom pre-ordered at a later date. Or maybe there’s other specifics that come into play that I don’t know about… For the most relevant information for your own circumstances emailing Purism is likely the best way to go.