Where to post to get an overview of what Librem 5 with Purism will & won't do

Hardware Librem 5
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I’ve been looking through some of the posts here and I’ve seen it said that the Librem 5 (at least at first) won’t realistically replace one’s existing phone and I’d like to get a detailed understanding of what this precisely means from the following standpoint/background:

I’m not a systems guy or admin, though I’m very familiar with the command line and I know enough to struggle through installs. I’ve had a Raspberry Pi 3 for 1 or 2 years now and use it on a regular basis, but none of my computers/devices are pure *nix. I am a coder and I write mostly in perl, and some python and java. But as far as devices, I’ve lived in an Apple hardware environment my entire life. I’m so pissed at Apple since I updated my iPhone 6s to iOS 13 that I’m exploring the possibility of diving into a purely linux life. And I find a lot about the Librem 5 to be appealing, particularly that it comes with lifetime software updates and that every software update should improve the phone’s performance and that it’s all open source & open hardware.

So this past weekend, I made a somewhat detailed list of all the things I do with my iPhone (or rather, a list of what I may have taken for granted what a “phone” should be able to do). I plan to individually research each item and figure out whether or not I’d be able to do those things with the Librem 5. My hunch is that I won’t be able to do most of it, but I don’t really know whether there is open source 3rd party software that will bridge those gaps between the Librem 5 and what I currently do with my iPhone. Is there an appropriate place I can post my list and work to fill in a feature table where conceptually, I basically am looking for something like this:

+-------------------------+-----------+-----------------+-----------+-------------------+
| feature                 | supported | planned support | 3rd party | 3rd party planned |
+-------------------------+-----------+-----------------+-----------+-------------------+
| digital assistant       | no        | no              | no        | mycroft?          |
|     control smart-home  | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     exec custom code    | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     search web          | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     report weather      | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     do math             | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Add to lists        | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Create events       | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Create reminders    | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Make calls          | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Knows relationships | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     find friends        | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Start timer         | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     set alarm clock     | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| turn-by-turn nav        | no        | no              | no        | Pur Maps,Mgc Erth |
|     traffic-awareness   | no        | no              | no        | Magic Earth       |
| smart watch support     | ?         | ?               | ?         | Pine Time         |
|     step counter        | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     heart rate mon      | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Password DB             | ?         | ?               | 1Password | ?                 |
|     secure notes        | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     attachments         | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Automatic Backups       | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Clock                   | yes       | n/a             | n/a       | n/a               |
|     alarms              | yes       | n/a             | n/a       | n/a               |
|     timer               | yes       | n/a             | n/a       | n/a               |
| Find my (muted) phone   | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| VPN                     | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Widgets (e.g. ifttt)    | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Sharing stuff           | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     2-way shared lists/ | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|       notes (e.g.       |           |                 |           |                   |
|       groceries)        |           |                 |           |                   |
|     PDF export          | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Media               | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Printer compatiblty | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Calendar subscrips  | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Smart-home support      | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     first/last home     | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|       automations       |           |                 |           |                   |
|       (e.g. Life360)    |           |                 |           |                   |
|     IFTTT               | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Smart hub support   | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Bluetooth               | yes       | n/a             | n/a       | n/a               |
|     ibeacon support     | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Full notification ctrl  | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     App badges          | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Persistent/temp     | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     sounds              | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     lock screen         | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Universal features (ie. |           |                 |           |                   |
|   works everywhere)     |           |                 |           |                   |
|     Dictation           | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     cast screen         | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     screen zoom         | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     invert colors       | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Hardware                |           |                 |           |                   |
|     Compass             | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Flash light         | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Speaker phone       | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Media stuff             |           |                 |           |                   |
|     Cast content (tv)   | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Plays music         | ?         | ?               | Lollypop  | ?                 |
|         In background   | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Edit photos         | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Voice recording     | yes       | n/a             | n/a       | n/a               |
|     Video recording     | no        | Cheese          | ?         | ?                 |
| Camera-related          | yes       | n/a             | n/a       | n/a               |
|     Scanner             | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Scan QR             | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Web stuff               |           |                 |           |                   |
|     Add to home screen  | yes       | n/a             | n/a       | n/a               |
|     Runs javascript     | yes       | n/a             | n/a       | n/a               |
|     Request desktop site| ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Works with computer     | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Sync music/voicerecs| ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Sync photos/videos  | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Sync Contacts       | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Sync Cal/reminders  | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Sync Messages       | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Sync docs           | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Use as input device | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|       (mouse/keyboard)  |           |                 |           |                   |
|       inc. dictation    |           |                 |           |                   |
|     Control computer's  | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|       music             |           |                 |           |                   |
|     VNC                 | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
| Messaging/Calling       |           |                 |           |                   |
|     pic/vid messages    | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Video calls         | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Works w/ 911 (share | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|       location)         |           |                 |           |                   |
|     Share anything via  | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|       mail/msg atchmnts |           |                 |           |                   |
| Financial stuff         |           |                 |           |                   |
|     Pay w/ phone(/watch)| ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Deposit checks (i.e.| ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|       bank apps)        |           |                 |           |                   |
|     Card Valet (ie turn | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|        off debit cards) |           |                 |           |                   |
| Specific Apps           |           |                 |           |                   |
|     Dropbox/Drive sync  | ?         | ?               | web*      | ?                 |
|     Words with friends  | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Netflix/Prime       | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Podcasts            | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Amazon              | ?         | ?               | web*      | ?                 |
|     Tunity              | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Wyze cam            | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Shazam              | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Uber/Lyft           | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Slack               | ?         | ?               | yes       | ?                 |
|     Google voice        | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|     Duo mobile (2FA for | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|       work)             |           |                 |           |                   |
|     Automatic (app for  | ?         | ?               | ?         | ?                 |
|       dongle)           |           |                 |           |                   |
+-------------------------+-----------+-----------------+-----------+-------------------+

I don’t feel like such a broad level post would be entirely appropriate here? I know that each item is an entire topic in and of itself and I’m not really looking to start a deep discussion. I just want a sense of what can and can’t be done out of the box with some install efforts.

EDIT1: Well, based on responses thus far, I have added the entire list here.
EDIT2: Updated table for responses. Will continue to update.

6 Likes
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Your table makes a lot of sense to me in principle. But the features you list and “take for granted that a phone should do” looks pretty weird. Digital assistant? Smart watch gimmickry? I do hope we get a decent navigator, though.

1 Like
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Looks like Pure Maps is on the way:
https://lists.community.puri.sm/pipermail/librem-5-dev/2018-October/000021.html

5 Likes
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Your smart watch hopes might be possible (for cheap even) in the not to distant future: Pine Time.

I’m going to guess that traffic awareness is based on mining data from peoples current phones to work properly. I’m not sure if this data can be accessed outside of their respective ecosystems but I know Purism has no desire to mine their own information like this.

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I was trying to be agnostic in my terminology. By “Digital assistant”, I mean I can speak to the phone and it executes my commands. I use Siri for tons of stuff, like turning on off devices (via homebridge on my pi), getting the weather, creating geo-fence & time-based reminders, adding items to shared lists (e.g. “Groceries” is shared with my wife), doing math, googling, initiating calls, sending texts, running custom shortcuts (e.g. “When is the next bus to work” - which parses the NJ Transit website for the stop nearest my house), create calendar events, start timers & set alarms,… and Siri knows all my relationships so I can say “Tell my parents…” and she sends a message to a group text.

And in reference to smart watch stuff, I suppose step counter & heart-rate monitor are somewhat poor examples, because presumably those features “work” without the phone, but I do share my workout activity with others for motivation and track progress via an app on the phone, so they are relevant in that sense. I also control my phone’s music through the watch. I can initiate Siri by lifting my arm and speaking through the watch (which is extremely helpful while bike riding). I see texts, approve 2FA requests, see the weather, track my fitness goals, pay with apple pay,… As I understand it, my Apple Watch won’t work with a non-apple phone and I was wondering if there is another watch that would. The nice thing about the watch is that it authenticates once and stays authenticated until it senses it’s been taken off.

You may characterize this stuff as gimmickry, especially if you don’t see value in it to you, but I use these features all the time and I just want to be precisely aware what it is I’d be giving up.

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The traffic awareness in Waze may be augmented by data mining, which I understand goes against the principles of Librem 5, but a lot of the info Waze provides was explicitly shared by users/drivers. Someone shares traffic slow-downs, broken down cars, speed traps, objects on the road, potholes, flooding, cars in the shoulder, accidents, etc… I share those things myself. I find it way more useful than just the generic turn by turn directions provided in google maps, Apple Maps, etc.

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So it seems as though I should share my entire table…

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Yes, this service collects and stores location data and routes traveled until you delete your account. Only traffic-aware app that is promising might be Magic Earth (based on OpenStreetMap project) even though its program code is currently not open source. But still, according to the provider, there are considerations to publish the program code so that everyone can check it independently. Those interested in checking the program code are welcome to contact Magic Earth directly (almost sure). Magic Earth Android app doesn’t even need G account to load itself and be fully functional. Even though I didn’t tested it intensively because I use/need few more things, but its real-time road traffic info deserves my respect. Thanks for this thread, and please evaluate Magic Earth on your phone as hopefully might be something to consider … because I cannot code.

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This may be a demanding requirement. In particular, if voice control is implemented by sending speech to a server on the internet for processing then this would be philosophically opposed by many potential customers (myself included).

I think that overall your list is premature. The Librem 5 isn’t even mainstream shipping yet. Purism is still adding core functionality. In other words, dive into Linux, but maybe not quite yet for a phone. Give it a few more months. Also, you don’t have to be Linux-only. Some people may insist on that. Other people may be more pragmatic, and phase out non-Linux stuff as and when it is practical and an acceptable result.

That’s an interesting one. Does Apple lock all non-Apple devices out of that?

Also, there are privacy issues with that. (That in and of itself isn’t a problem. I can choose not to use Apple Pay because of that, while other customers can choose to use it anyway - that is a key feature of an open platform - provided that it can be done at all.)

That would require careful looking at, again for privacy reasons. I expect that by the end of mainstream shipping, coupled perhaps with an online service, this will be achievable.

To me that is a no-brainer. It is mainstream Linux. I should be able to run my own programs, presumably even today.

I think python may be the best fit for you.

Not at all.

Anyway, gimmicks are fine provided that they are secure and private. :slight_smile:

1 Like
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Keep an eye on pine64, purism isn’t the only game in town. Pine is currently developing their watch as part of their ecosystem.

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pay with apple pay
That’s an interesting one. Does Apple lock all non-Apple devices out of that?

This is simply an omission in my editing. I originally made the list from the context of how I use my iPhone and edited it to generically be what I expect to be able to do with a phone. So I should have changed this to something like “pay with the phone”. I know there are other ways to pay with non Apple phones, so I’d like to know if there’s a way you could be able to pay with the Librem 5.

exec custom code
To me that is a no-brainer. It is mainstream Linux. I should be able to run my own programs, presumably even today.

I think python may be the best fit for you.

I think there’s a misunderstanding here. This is a sub-item of “digital assistant”. Perhaps the indenting didn’t come through due to the browser rendering. I know that executing custom code on a Linux device is a no-brainer. I’m a programmer after all and I work in a Linux environment. But as you already pointed out, doing that via a digital assistant, I.e. spoken command, is not a no-brainer. I do this with my iPhone via Siri Shortcuts. I code a shortcut and associate it with a spoken command. The one I use the most is a shortcut I wrote to parse the NJ Transit website. I associated it with the spoken command “When is the next bus to work?”

I’m glad to hear 1Password can work on Linux. I haven’t used it before, but I did look into it once. Does it just do passwords, or can it do secure notes? And can it do attachments? Apple getting rid of keychain sync with mobile me was one of the first times they truly pissed me off.

I’m aware that the list is premature. I just don’t want to assume that it can’t do any of this stuff out of the box or that there aren’t 3rd party repos that can do these things on Linux. With Apple, I rarely if ever, need to install 3rd party stuff, aside from those apps I listed. I was glad they handled all that because I didn’t want to be bothered. I just wanted it all to work. The problem though is that I painfully notice it when they drop features and kill my battery with updates and planned obsolescence.

2 Likes
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Even so, I think this is likely to be a difficult area for Linux. Behemoth companies like Apple and Google will get market share within merchants, and merchants won’t be very interested in supporting niche alternative payment platforms. It could come down to the attitude of the authorities in a given country - whether they allow that or whether they insist on an open payment platform.

The best option may be “pay with cryptocurrency”.

My bad. Yes, a misunderstanding. Your formatting was accurately rendered.

Honestly I would not be too optimistic about voice control. However everything that a person would like to do via voice control, presumably they still want to be able to do that some other way if there is no voice control.

I have not seen any particular statement from Purism regarding voice control.

Sorry, I don’t use it. Perhaps best to follow the link to the other topic, which is specifically about password stores, and ask there. However that topic suggests “Password Safe”.

2 Likes
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I think your list is a good idea, premature or no. These questions will come up eventually, particularly when/if the librem 5 takes off, and it’s not a bad idea to get something started towards answering them. Unfortunately I don’t have any of those answers for you (I’ve forgone pretty much all of your entire list at one point or another), but it makes me happy that here, or somewhere, the questions will have some sort of coherent form such that they can be answered.

2 Likes
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The Librem 5 already has GNOME Clock, so it has a working alarm clock, stop watch and timer.
It has a Gedit, so you can make lists, but maybe you are thinking about a specific list app.
It has the GNOME Calculator, so you can do math.

Yes, you can “add web stuff to home screen”. You can take any web page and add it as an app to your desktop, so you can go to a web site that reports the weather and add it as a weather app to your desktop.
Yes, GNOME Web (epiphany) can run JavaScript.

Bluetooth is now working.
You can use GNOME Sound Recorder to record voice.
The cameras aren’t working right now, but it is planned to use Cheese for video recording.
Lollypop is working in the Librem 5 for playing music. I have no idea if it can be played in the background right now.

You can install Slack in Linux, but it probably isn’t designed to handle small screens and I have no idea if an ARM port is available, but I doubt it.
Dropbox works in web browser, so you can use it that way.
I have no idea what most of your specific apps are, since I only use apps found in F-Droid on my phone. If it runs in a web browser, then it will work in the Librem 5, but you might have to change certain security settings in the web browser to get it to work as you want. For example, you need to allow the web browser to allow sharing of the geolocation, and I’m not sure if the Librem 5 will allow GNOME Web to access the GNSS, so you might not get precise location.

I recommend that you install Qemu and download the latest image of the Librem 5 and run it on your PC to see what apps are available, and then try installing the other apps that you want using the apt install command. See: https://developer.puri.sm/Librem5/Development_Environment/Boards/qemu.html

There are a lot of things available in GTK + GNOME, but they aren’t using the libhandy classes and they haven’t adapted the dialog boxes, so they won’t work well on a small screen. For example, you can install Gimp to edit photos, but it will be a very painful process without a mouse and the interface is designed for a large screen.

I expect that a lot more GTK apps will be adapted for the Librem 5 within six months or a year after release, but don’t expect a lot of GTK software to work well in Q2 of 2020 when the Evergreen batch starts shipping.

1 Like
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For a digital assistant, see this discussion about MyCroft:

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“Words with friends” is basically online Scrabble.

“Shazam” is an online app which listens to music and tells you the artist and title. (It’s actually pretty good.)

As with all online services, getting a vendor interested in supporting Linux will be a struggle. So it may depend on having a container for Android apps.

For “Words with friends” it wouldn’t be too hard to implement it oneself. (Adding: Not volunteering to do anything other than English though. :slight_smile: )

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Tunity - scans a tv with the camera to determine the channel and provides the synchronized audio through your phone for that channel. I use it at the gym to watch tv while I ride the stationary bike. Good for public muted TVs.

Wyze cam - security camera app for Wyze brand cameras. These cams will notify you through the app if they hear an alarm, like a smoke alarm.

Google voice - allows you to make phone calls using your google voice phone number (a free VOIP service). Definitely not conforming to the Librem 5 ideals though. I use my GV number with businesses to prevent spam calls because it’s easy to block callers, especially those without caller ID, and has call screening.

Duo mobile - 2 factor authentication app that my work uses.

Automatic - app for a car computer port dongle that allows you to diagnose and dismiss check engine light problems.

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BTW, I think I should probably specify that “supported” means designed for a mobile device and touch interface. So I’m not sure if my latest updates to the table are accurate or not. Does gnome support a touch interface and a small screen? I haven’t used it in awhile, but I suspect it doesn’t. If there’s a mouse/cursor involved, I don’t think it should be marked as supported.

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Regarding the comment on (shared) lists… I was slow to adopt the usage of Apple’s Reminders app as a place to maintain stuff like to-do lists. I was using the notes app and its checkbox feature for the longest time. I still use it for my extended to-do list, but after I realized these 3 things, I started using reminders for to-do items:

  1. You can paste an entire list and each line becomes a separate item with a checkbox
  2. Using the recurring reminder feature for recurring to-do items means less work to sit down and review what needs to be done
  3. I can maintain multiple categorical lists and the undone items all get grouped in a “Today” view - which makes it much easier to see all the to-do items yet keep everything categorized

So I don’t think a text editing tool is a sufficient stand-in for a list app, especially since I presume you cannot mutually edit it with another person (e.g. either one of us can go to the grocery store and we instantly know what’s been bought and what hasn’t).

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I use Standard Notes for creating todo lists and taking notes. It works very well on PureOS and iOS.

1 Like