librem 14, i have a previous detailed post about it
9 months? They’ve had my money for 2 years. And some other people’s money for longer.
I agree with you, of course.
Purism is delaying refunds because they are unable to meet their obligations as they fall due (as demonstrated by the fact that they are not meeting their obligations as they fall due). They will only give the odd refund here and there when someone really makes the effort … an effort of the kind StevenR is describing. Which is probably so much effort and requiring so much time that the cost of your time exceeds the value of the refund - assuming you get it. Purism knows that, which is presumably why they are being obstructive in this fashion. To be fair to Purism, this is a common tactic employed by many large corporates - telecomms, utilities, courier companies, etc.
I also suspect Purism are only shipping the odd phone here and there … and everyone who is reporting they have received their phone is like a lottery winner … perhaps not quite one in a million, but maybe one in a thousand and unlikely IMO to be more than one in a hundred. It’s just for show. I don’t believe they are anywhere near being able to ship anything like close to all the phones that have been prepaid for, not just now, but ever, because they have spent the money needed to buy the components on other things - salaries mainly, I suspect.
This kind of a scheme always comes unstuck in the end. And in the end, no one will be the winner - even if you got your phone, it won’t be supported because the company surely won’t be around once the fecal matter hits the ventilator. And even if you get your refund, you’ll have to put so much effort into getting it, it won’t be worth it and by the time you get it, inflation will have further eroded the value of the dollars you get back (it already has to a large degree). I think at this point there is no way to win. Get some other phone. Maybe get a de-Googled phone from Brax.me or get the Pinephone, or just buy an old Nokia 3310 (the original one, not the remake).
Do tell me if I got any of it wrong, and if so, why. I’ll be happy to be corrected and even happier if I’m wrong.
if that’s the case how have they not gone bankrupt yet and are still legally running and taking orders when all that happens for years?
Purism is still taking orders and making up excuses about why most of us are not getting what we paid for. Before the pandemic started, Purism knew exactly how many pre-orders they had to fill. Unlike most companies who need to speculate about future demand, Purism had an exact number and it was very very big. So then the pandemic hits and Purism is caught by surprise. So there was no product ramp-up to speak of, before the pandemic hit. How stupid can they be to not ramp up production when the product is ready and some shipping has started? That’s why I believe that the pandemic is just Purism’s latest excuse. They weren’t planning to ship product in volume anyway, even when they had a completed and product and before there was a pandemic.
StevenR, Should you end up following the strategy you outlined, please keep us posted.
The only thing i haven’t done was talk to a lawyer but i am ready to if they don’t pay me back by next week
A part of that strategy would doubtlessly involve putting up some kind of platform, and/or as a part of an attorney’s website, from which to tell the story and to communicate everything in real time. I wouldn’t expect Purism to host that kind of content, nor should anyone trust that they would be willing to. So keeping people here posted is probably something that wouldn’t happen, at least not for more than one bomb-dropping post until it gets promptly deleted. But if effective, it would surface publicly and be easy to find in the media.
If you’re going to do something like this, you’ve got to do it right. There is a lot more at stake than just my refund and there is strength in numbers. It’s also a matter of principal. Money collecting schemes with little to no delivery are a public blight. It sets a bad precedent and encourages more of the same. No matter how good the cause (or story being told as a means), there are limits to how much any company can exploit the public and not eventually pay the price.
One advantage of a lawsuit in such a case could also be the drawing out of secret information, in to the public domain. For example, if a subpoena required Purism to disclose their total number of phones sold, numbers shipped, and funds available to finance existing orders, then Purism would be forced to disclose that information. The next day, those numbers could be published anywhere, and discussed publicly, and used by the public to decide for themselves whether or not they feel taken advantage of. In a case where the public is the victem and has legal standing, it would be impossible in most cases to get a judge to restrain the plaintiff side of the suit from disclosing what they’ve found via subpoena, to the public.
12 Months later and Purism still has my money … but they delivered! They delivered the promise to give me an exceptional phone some time after order and conducting the payment.
So yes, I obtained what I asked for:
The promise to get the most Free phone on earth, the only one with Free Software and Free Hardware up to the most possible extend. The one and only certified by FSF, a.f.a.i.k.
I can complaint I still can not use it. True.
But I can not pretend I would have expected to get the device swift after buying it.
If someone does not like it - do a better job yourself and let me know where to place my order.
Up to that point - support your one and only Free Hardware Phone producer.
Just my humble opinion.
Sorry for bad language, not my mothertongue.
the point of the post was not if they delivered the product or not.
it’s about how many laws, return policiy and FTC rules they are breaking daily to consumers.
waiting 6 months after asking a refund and not even have a clear answer to why or when you will see your money is not ok.
I think at this point, I have to conclude that Purism is a Ponzi scheme (taking money from new “members” to deliver the odd phone for a small fraction of earlier members), so we should just bring them down so they stop scamming more people. The amount of work required to write to the AG and to sue them is a lot, much more than the $800 (or whatever you paid for your phone) is worth, but what may be worth it is the satisfaction of knowing you participated in the stopping of scammers.
it could be less if we all pitched in.
And yea the definition of ponzi scheme is basically taking new customers to fill the previous ones
So I guess in telling people not to order from them, I’m reducing my chances of ever getting my phone.
OK, so be it.
To be honest, I think the odds of us ever receiving a phone in a state which is both functional, technologically current and delivering on the promise (privacy + privacy we can trust) are pretty slim at this point.
You should use deepl.com to translate. Êtes-vous francophone? Is french your first tongue?
Just for the sake of accuracy, and to the best of my recollection, being “technologically current” was never one of the stated, or implied, goals. (If you mean “similar in specs to concurrent commercial devices.”)
… and even devices that are “technologically current” do not remain so for long, regardless of the maker. That’s technology. Onwards and upwards.
In fact, during the Librem 5 development process, the CPU was upgraded. So that aspect is somewhat less technologically non-current than it otherwise would be.
Your English is good.
What is your order status? Did it changed from “Awaiting Shipment”?
my order was ready to ship since may and that’s when i filled a refund request.
All info is in my previous post
Same here. Backed the crowdfunding end 2017. Waited for a phone for four years. In the end of 2021 i received an update that the device would be shipped. Since i bought a new phone because of the fact that the librem5 was not produced in 2019 as they stated and the fact that the reviews about the phone are still not good i asked for the refund.
I was promised that they would make a refund in a few weeks. When they did not i asked for the refund again and was given a new date in 5 months. That date again passed while not receiving my money. When i know contact them they even refuse to give a date. I filed a complaint with the ftc and with the departement of consumer affairs (https://www.dca.ca.gov/consumers/complaints/consumer.shtml).
I am interested in other places where it would be usefull to file a complaint and would advice people to also file complaints at the ftc and the dca. The more they receive the better. There is another thread on refunds that might be of use as well: Estimate your Librem 5 refund 💸