StevenR, Should you end up following the strategy you outlined, please keep us posted.
The only thing i haven’t done was talk to a lawyer but i am ready to if they don’t pay me back by next week
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A part of that strategy would doubtlessly involve putting up some kind of platform, and/or as a part of an attorney’s website, from which to tell the story and to communicate everything in real time. I wouldn’t expect Purism to host that kind of content, nor should anyone trust that they would be willing to. So keeping people here posted is probably something that wouldn’t happen, at least not for more than one bomb-dropping post until it gets promptly deleted. But if effective, it would surface publicly and be easy to find in the media.
If you’re going to do something like this, you’ve got to do it right. There is a lot more at stake than just my refund and there is strength in numbers. It’s also a matter of principal. Money collecting schemes with little to no delivery are a public blight. It sets a bad precedent and encourages more of the same. No matter how good the cause (or story being told as a means), there are limits to how much any company can exploit the public and not eventually pay the price.
One advantage of a lawsuit in such a case could also be the drawing out of secret information, in to the public domain. For example, if a subpoena required Purism to disclose their total number of phones sold, numbers shipped, and funds available to finance existing orders, then Purism would be forced to disclose that information. The next day, those numbers could be published anywhere, and discussed publicly, and used by the public to decide for themselves whether or not they feel taken advantage of. In a case where the public is the victem and has legal standing, it would be impossible in most cases to get a judge to restrain the plaintiff side of the suit from disclosing what they’ve found via subpoena, to the public.
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12 Months later and Purism still has my money … but they delivered! They delivered the promise to give me an exceptional phone some time after order and conducting the payment.
So yes, I obtained what I asked for:
The promise to get the most Free phone on earth, the only one with Free Software and Free Hardware up to the most possible extend. The one and only certified by FSF, a.f.a.i.k.
I can complaint I still can not use it. True.
But I can not pretend I would have expected to get the device swift after buying it.
If someone does not like it - do a better job yourself and let me know where to place my order.
Up to that point - support your one and only Free Hardware Phone producer.
Just my humble opinion.
Sorry for bad language, not my mothertongue.
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the point of the post was not if they delivered the product or not.
it’s about how many laws, return policiy and FTC rules they are breaking daily to consumers.
waiting 6 months after asking a refund and not even have a clear answer to why or when you will see your money is not ok.
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I think at this point, I have to conclude that Purism is a Ponzi scheme (taking money from new “members” to deliver the odd phone for a small fraction of earlier members), so we should just bring them down so they stop scamming more people. The amount of work required to write to the AG and to sue them is a lot, much more than the $800 (or whatever you paid for your phone) is worth, but what may be worth it is the satisfaction of knowing you participated in the stopping of scammers.
it could be less if we all pitched in.
And yea the definition of ponzi scheme is basically taking new customers to fill the previous ones
So I guess in telling people not to order from them, I’m reducing my chances of ever getting my phone.
OK, so be it.
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To be honest, I think the odds of us ever receiving a phone in a state which is both functional, technologically current and delivering on the promise (privacy + privacy we can trust) are pretty slim at this point.
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Just for the sake of accuracy, and to the best of my recollection, being “technologically current” was never one of the stated, or implied, goals. (If you mean “similar in specs to concurrent commercial devices.”) 
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… and even devices that are “technologically current” do not remain so for long, regardless of the maker. That’s technology. Onwards and upwards.
In fact, during the Librem 5 development process, the CPU was upgraded. So that aspect is somewhat less technologically non-current than it otherwise would be.
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Your English is good.
What is your order status? Did it changed from “Awaiting Shipment”?
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my order was ready to ship since may and that’s when i filled a refund request.
All info is in my previous post
Same here. Backed the crowdfunding end 2017. Waited for a phone for four years. In the end of 2021 i received an update that the device would be shipped. Since i bought a new phone because of the fact that the librem5 was not produced in 2019 as they stated and the fact that the reviews about the phone are still not good i asked for the refund.
I was promised that they would make a refund in a few weeks. When they did not i asked for the refund again and was given a new date in 5 months. That date again passed while not receiving my money. When i know contact them they even refuse to give a date. I filed a complaint with the ftc and with the departement of consumer affairs (https://www.dca.ca.gov/consumers/complaints/consumer.shtml).
I am interested in other places where it would be usefull to file a complaint and would advice people to also file complaints at the ftc and the dca. The more they receive the better. There is another thread on refunds that might be of use as well: Estimate your Librem 5 refund 💸
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When it comes to getting a Librem 5 refund from Purism, I am a bit on the fence. On one hand, I want to get the phone. On the other hand, I don’t like or approve in some of the ethics. But I really would prefer to get the phone if I can as opposed to just being right about the ethical issues. I feel like Purism has abused the trust that I placed in them, despite some reasonable mistakes that they made.
I think this is an issue that each person has to decide on for themselves, despite the fact that our individual decisions will likely eventually affect others in the long run.
When the chip shortage is over, I will no longer tolerate delays by Purism in not quickly reaching shipping parity on all Librem 5 products. The perpetual excuse-laden mire of waiting and wondering about what is really going on will be over for me. No more excuses from Purism will work on me at that point. Now is the time for Purism to make sure that after the supply chain returns to normal, that no more excuses are needed later. My path will be clear if things return to the old Purism-normal after the supply chains have been returned to their normal. I won’t sit idle and read the excuses without taking action. I’ll start with my Attorney General’s office.
If I decide that enough is enough, then my $600.00 pre-payment won’t matter to me anymore. I would then rather see a story on the evening news showing several Attorneys General of several respective states stepping in to decide if Purism lives or dies, disclosing to the public, the extent of damages done (all of the numbers that Purism hides from us), and if necessary, shutting Purism down completely. The Social Purpose isn’t worth anything if it only spreads through dis-honest and exploitive means as Purism has absolutely employed already - even if Todd and Kyle won’t admit that to themselves. So at some point, you have to call Purism’s hand, at any cost, win or lose. I would just rather receive my phone. But if enough of us complain all at once, then purism’s options and freedom to make their own business decisions (free of Attorney General oversight) may expire. If Purism ever says that “well, the chip shortage is over but now, the delay is because…”, that’ll be it for my support. Time to contact the AG if that ever happens. No more excuses Purism. Do you even have a serious product ramp-up plan yet? Or do you just wait and make another excuse when exponential shipping levels don’t magically happen on their own?
How about an article on this topic Kyle? It would be very inspiring to read about exactly how Purism intends to 5x, 10x, 100x, 1000x or whatever the exponential production ramp looks like, after you have unlimited access to the chips. Are you still planning on just making small, labor-intensive batches forever under the mistaken belief that with enough lies and excuses along the way, that you’ll eventually catch-up? Even Tesla tells everyone how many cars they have made and plan to make in the future. But I sincerely doubt that Purism even has a ramp-up plan of any kind. Does “ramping-up” simply mean “one more big batch and see where it goes from there”? What about financing for the twenty-fifth big batch or the fiftyth big batch in less than a year? Is that something that anyone at Purism even thinks about and plans for?
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I’m in love (have respect for their achievements and work if you will) with most of them anyway. And if you cannot help yourself with being patient I cannot do much about that either.
EDIT:
We all know that being in love does not often lead to good objective decision-making processes.
I respect Purism’s work and just wish they could actually afford to build and ship my phone to me instead of using my money to be a free software provider for Pine Phone, who apparently is making profits off of Purism’s efforts.
In the “love” analogy, it’s like a woman who marries a ritch man and has other lovers (Pine Phone, L5-USA) and others on the side while forgetting where the money actually comes from. If you want to believe all of the lies and excuses that go with that dysfunctional crap, you’re free to do it. Yeah, Purism has an acceptable excuse for now. But when the chip shortage is over, so is Purism if they fail to perform then. The bigger this whole pyramid gets, the bigger of a target they become to the authorities.
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@StevenR I follow what you say. I backed them in 2017 because of the idea of usercentric freedom and privacy. I was aware that producing these could take time. After 4 years of being patient i was finally updated that i would receive the device and chose not to because of i already bought a new device. For me this is until that time a loan i provided them with because if believed in the idea…I did not complain nor blame them until them.
Since them i lost my patience with them. I was first promised a refund in a few weeks but they never came through. Then i was again promised a refund in 5 months. Now they just bluntly say we dont know when we will refund you.
This to me is abuse of power and that to me is very offensive but even more from a company that uses user freedom as one of their selling points. They are lying over and over again.
If you look at the librem 14 kick further website ( https://app.kickfurther.com/coop/purism-spc-librem-14-laptop) they claim : “We have a track record of performing for buyers and believe in over delivering.” and " . Our company is a Social Purpose Corporation (SPC) devoted to ensuring the security, privacy and freedom of its users. Placing our values over profits is at the heart of our identity as a company, and that is why we make an excellent brand-partner on Kickfurther."
They still use these values as marketing but they dont follow these values. Also on their website they advertise these as core values yet they dont follow them.
For me that is enough reason to not even want a device of them. I wont be playing this game. They lack the ethics while using them as a selling point. For me this is abouth trust and they forever lost mine.
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