Librem 5 Fir Batch

[god-future]

Does someone have latest news to Fir? I mean, are there official statements concerning progress or decisions for Fir or did Purism even stop following this path?

Happy for any hint, because I still wait for Librem delivery (yes, after 9 years).

[JCS]

Librem 5 Fir orders will be fulfilled using version 2 of the mainboard, which is actively being designed. Progressive milestones are dependent upon funding projections (backwards-compatible mainboard upgrade vs partial mechanical design revision vs full redesign, etc). At this time, Purism is not pursuing NXP as the CPU manufacturer the next revision given available options. There are a lot more exciting details to share as milestones are crossed.

[carlosgonz]

@JCS

Librem 5 Fir orders will be fulfilled using version 2 of the mainboard, which is actively being designed.

Is @ekuzmenko and @dos involved on L5v2 development?

Or next Librem 5 v2 it is a chinese clevo phone with a fancy notch???

Thanks

[Privacy2]

@JCS

Librem 5 Fir orders will be fulfilled using version 2 of the mainboard, which is actively being designed.

Wow! Let’s go back to Todd Weaver’s announcement of the “Fir batch”. Librem 5 Shipping Announcement – Purism

1. Hardware: 14nm Next Generation CPU
2. Mechanical Design: Version 2
3. Software: Long term support release
4. Certifications: FCC and CE
5. Shipping window: Q4 2020 (delayed due to Coronavirus outbreak)
6. Expected shipping to be updated.

So:

2, 3, 4 are just “marketing fluff” in my opinion.

5, 6 really should be combined. And is unchanged even 6 years after the original shipping window.

1 is now on hold. Clearly they were thinking along the lines of a newer and more energy efficient NXP in the i.MX line at that time. Now we know it will be a completely different chipset. Of course this should be expected given how much time has passed.

[carlosgonz]

@Privacy2

Clearly they were thinking along the lines of a newer and more energy efficient NXP in the i.MX line at that time.

Librem 5 Fir cpu it is more powerfull and heat-and-energy efficient then Librem5 Evergreen so everyone know this.

@JCS

Purism is not pursuing NXP as the CPU manufacturer the next revision

This is a superbad news.

Purism can not demonize FIR and EVERGREEN SOCs as not good, because it is good-and-enough for mobile. The current software for Librem5 still SUPERBAD which make no work as to be. Do you want to prove me that i superwrong @dos ??

It Purism loooking a google mobile socs for next L5v2?

[Privacy2]

@carlosgonz

It Purism loooking a google mobile socs for next L5v2?

I doubt it.

Speculation: Rockchip might be a decent alternative. The RK3566 or RK3588 look fairly promising in terms of open drivers (Collabora is a key player in panthor + panfrost).

Wild Idea: Since Pine64 is not currently (due to high RAM prices) doing much (Pine64 halts all Linux hardware manufacturing through at least mid-2027 due to shortages — memory crunch forces open-source maker to freeze SBCs, tablets, and phones | Tom's Hardware) , Purism might partner with them. Their HW expertise is very strong. Consider the speed at which they developed the Pinephone and Pinephone Pro hardware vs. what Purism did.

[Edit: I recall that Amos talked a bit about RK3566 and RK3588 in 2024 in this thread. Librem 5 Fir Batch - #160 by amosbatto ]

[Aside: Also, one should note that GrapheneOS is partnering with Motorola to develop a non-Google phone for GrapheneOS. While it’s unlikely, it’s possible that just for their own ease-of-development, they might have more open drivers. It’s worth keeping an eye on that.]

[carlosgonz]

@Privacy2

The RK3566 or RK3588 look fairly promising in terms of open drivers (Collabora is a key player in panthor + panfrost).

First…be carefull with vendors socs marketing…

To me and just to me RK3566 or RK3588, RK3399S it just not good for Librem5.
The best promise of these SoCs is that they can be Libreboot.

So i guess too that Purism it want to use RK3588S as Divine phone, however as on divine docs it clear they know all obstacles that need to cross to achieving a battery life acceptable for a phone.

Personally i prefer Librem 5 Fir SoC than RKXXXX.

Also i would like a full-statement from @dos @JCS explaining why RKXXXX is full-better on battery-life-performance than i.MX8M Plus. We need to tackle battery life first not cpu marketing horsepower.

Personally i would like a Librem 5 v2 Evergreen soc but refined for battery life, like 5.4’ premium display - low-power, premiun desing, premiun electronics, better h..k.s, vapor-chamber, add nfc, more.

We already know a really bad experience on powersave on pinephonepro-rk3399s.

If Purism take divine phone socs why to have 2 phone with same socs? even worse divine phone still not on market to test battery life firstly.

What is it so obsession with CPU power to run plain software? that will turn my phone into a museum piece, because “Bad by Design”.

Also current librem5 evergreen still do not work as to be because missing all STACK software ACCEL. SO WAIT GNU DAWN FOR.

Also release a new more resistence premium battery L5, to support power drain.

Found a way to boot gnu gnulinux more faster..

Also kick-out all the software that is not compliance with gdawn full pipeline acceleration. So firefox is gone, more…

@Privacy2

partnering with Motorola

I like it.

[carlosgonz]

Please add a LED on PCB to turn ON RED if the module cover is open and the phone is ON, Turn Yellow if phone is off but battery inserted.

[amosbatto]

@Privacy2

1 is now on hold. Clearly they were thinking along the lines of a newer and more energy efficient NXP in the i.MX line at that time.

I suspect NXP told Purism that a 14nm version would be coming, but they neglected to mention that the i.MX 8M Plus would have a much weaker GPU and wouldn’t support DisplayPort Alt Mode, so Purism had to stay with the i.MX 8M Quad.

@Privacy2

Speculation: Rockchip might be a decent alternative. The RK3566 or RK3588 look fairly promising in terms of open drivers (Collabora is a key player in panthor + panfrost).

Yes, I suspect the next Librem phone will use the RK3588S, which as has a typical TDP of 8-12W vs 12-15W for the RK3588. I doubt Purism is planning on a phone with 32GB of LPDDR5 RAM, so the RK3588S that supports up to 16GB of LPDDR4X RAM should be enough. The smaller package size and lower power consumption are more important for a phone.

@carlosgonz

To me and just to me RK3566 or RK3588, RK3399S it just not good for Librem5.
The best promise of these SoCs is that they can be Libreboot.

From what I call tell from my web searches, there is no longer much difference between NXP i.MX 8M Quad and Rockchip RK3588 in terms of software freedom. Both the NXP and Rockchip chips require proprietary Synopsys DesignWare blobs to train the DDR PHY at boot, but can run on a FOSS stack after that. Collabora has done a ton of work to get the RK3588 properly supported in mainline Linux. They just added video capture with MIPI CSI for the RK3588 in Linux 7.2 and are now working on hardware H.264 encoding, which will save Purism a lot of work. See Collabora’s table of what is currently supported on the RK3588.

Given that NXP, Amlogic and Nvidia simply aren’t interested in making the kind of chip that Purism needs in its next gen phone, and Allwinner no longer collaborates with the community to support its chips, and Qualcomm requires lots of blobs, it looks to me like the RK3588S is the only viable choice.

[JR-Fi]

I’d add, so they don’t get overtlooked:

• A new modem which is more stable, more global and has 5G either already, or as an option in the modem family, will be important in longevity/upgradability
• The amount of memory will be an interesting point because the value of memory has increased several times this year alone: it’s easy to skimp on it at first but over time it may become a problem, because it can’t be added. Is the balance of memory vs. price right? Will the motherboards be the upgraded part of Librem 5 version in the future?
• The USB hub is a choking point for much of the activities (how about faster SD card access, data transfers?). Having also PCI would open up more possibilities with m.2 cards. Upgrade from USB2 to 3 would help in many places. But when thinking about the versatility of a linux device (broader than just a phone), additional USB ports could add a lot of value to a new kind of L5 and set it apart
• NFC would be nice. A lot of contactless things happening in the world, like payments and pairing making life easier.
• If and when Dawn and phosh 0.56+ are the base versions of a newer model, the difference will be quite substantial to previous. But as important as on-device apps are, how much more can they be supplemented with streamlined web-based services and would those be easier to implement than adding more and better hardware? For the masses, it’s important to be able to use those services. For the nerds among us, it’s important to be able to set up those ourselves (seflhost). A device is only part of what is needed for the whole experience.

[amosbatto]

@JR-Fi

The amount of memory will be an interesting point because the value of memory has increased several times this year alone: it’s easy to skimp on it at first but over time it may become a problem, because it can’t be added. Is the balance of memory vs. price right?

I expect that the AI boom will crash and memory prices will return to sane levels. Even if that doesn’t happen, the memory companies are massively expanding their factories, so eventually they will catch up with demand. If Purism is going to market the Librem phone as a convergent desktop device, it needs to have a decent amount of RAM and storage. More RAM also helps to be able to run a Waydroid container, so that people can use Android apps.

@JR-Fi

Will the motherboards be the upgraded part of Librem 5 version in the future?

It would be nice to be able to upgrade the Librem 5 by putting in a new motherboard, but I think Purism has to be conscious of the fact that a 5.3^[1] 5.7 inch screen is considered very outdated in the current phone market. According to Gsmarena’s Phone Finder, only 12 out of the 388 phones with touch screens introduced in 2026 have screens that are 5.7" or smaller. Today, most phone screens are between 6.1 to 6.5 inches. To appeal to the broader market, I think that Purism is going to need a different form factor with a larger screen, which probably means that it will need to change the shape of the motherboard.

---

1. Edited to change 5.3" to 5.7" ↩︎

[raenrfm]

Seems like the best estimates is the ram price reductions are at least a year away if not longer. I’m trying to get a 32gb DDR5 SODIMM and will have to fork over $500 for a single stick. It’s kind of ridiculous.

[JR-Fi]

@amosbatto

To appeal to the broader market,

It would appeal me more if it was just a tad smaller - again, something that would set it a part (but not so small as to be inconvenient or become a different type of device). May be harder to get, though..?

[carlosgonz]

@amosbatto

I suspect NXP told Purism that a 14nm version would be coming,

NXP i.MX 8M Plus is 14 nm for long time, do you mean 14nm for NXP i.MX 8M?

@amosbatto

but they neglected to mention that the i.MX 8M Plus would have a much weaker GPU

The weaker is that i,mx-8m plus gpu is not support 4k, but 2k and the Librem 5 display is 1.3k so this why removed DisplayPort Alt Mode.

@amosbatto

so Purism had to stay with the i.MX 8M Quad.

Not really as NXP i.MX 8M Plus is 14 nm is so much bettter for Librem 5, so even with NXP i.MX 8M Plus gpu weaker purism stilll can use it a converter to enable DisplayPort Alt Mode to suppport 1080p only for Dock Mode.

@amosbatto

Yes, I suspect the next Librem phone will use the RK3588S,

Librem 5 line can not use it RKXX SoCs, if so it will evil as opensource-&-vendors, however Purism may enable it RKXX on L4 or L6. But Divine phone will ship it RK3588Soon

@amosbatto

Collabora has done a ton of work to get the RK3588 properly supported in mainline Linux.

NXP i.MX 8M Plus is already supported and mature.

@amosbatto

They just added video capture with MIPI CSI for the RK3588 in Linux 7.2

NXP i.MX 8M Plus is already supported and mature. Even more with 2 block-ip-isp

@amosbatto

and are now working on hardware H.264 encoding,

.H.264 is legacy, however NXP i.MX 8M Plus is already supported h.264enc libre-blobs and mature.

@amosbatto

which will save Purism a lot of work. See Collabora’s table of what is currently supported on the RK3588.

Yes and Not.

@amosbatto

Given that NXP, Amlogic and Nvidia simply aren’t interested in making the kind of chip that Purism needs in its next gen phone,

We do not need any next-gen socs chipsets for L5 because even NXP i.MX 8M it is sufficient; its just that we havent seen L5 working wonder due to a wrong and de-embedded firmware.

However i wanted a Librem 5 Special Edition i.MX 8M Plus+ SOC featuring full gc7000 gpu

@JR-Fi

in longevity/upgradability

Liked

@amosbatto

the Librem phone as a convergent desktop device, it needs to have a decent amount of RAM and storage. More RAM also helps to be able to run a Waydroid container, so that people can use Android apps.

So Librem 5 it is an embedded device, not a desktop device.
Embedded devices requires Embedded software.
So i know too that on last years evils opensources oses stacker is moving the desktop software compatible to Embedded software but i far i know this is not complete, nevertheless the Librem 5 requires special handling due to its architecture to achieve peak performance, and this may even necessitate deviating from the mainline stack.

So Flatpak, Waydroid, Whatever it most for desktop devices, however as librem 5 is so wonder you may use this evil software on dock-mode as extra, but dont expect it to function like a desktop device

So mobian and pmos treat Librem5 as desktop device because is cheaper but enable a superbad experience.

At the end Librem 5 mission was for a gnu gnulinux mainline and a pure gnu system mobile device, not dock mode or etc per se.

[riabenko]

@amosbatto

Yes, I suspect the next Librem phone will use the RK3588S, which as has a typical TDP of 8-12W vs 12-15W for the RK3588. I doubt Purism is planning on a phone with 32GB of LPDDR5 RAM, so the RK3588S that supports up to 16GB of LPDDR4X RAM should be enough.

What if Purism decides that they need to provide an option of running models privately locally to compete with popular privacy-invasive products? They could probably reuse Alpaca, for example. So, there could be a 32GB RAM version as an option. But having an option likely means that the base version has the same SoC.

[carlosgonz]

@carlosgonz

However i wanted a Librem 5 Special Edition i.MX 8M Plus+ SOC featuring full gc7000 gpu

Or Librem 5-Special-Edition i.MX 8M+ SoC shipping 14nm and full gc7000 gpu.

Note that i fan for TEXAS Semiconductors, like Texas Instruments and Freescale so do not expect i speak good for Rockchips. But RK3588s it just not good for L5 serie.

@amosbatto

but I think Purism has to be conscious of the fact that a 5.3 inch screen is considered very outdated in the current phone market.

Do you mean 5.7 inch?

@amosbatto

Yes, I suspect the next Librem phone will use the RK3588S, which as has a typical TDP of 8-12W vs 12-15W for the RK3588.

PainphonePro RK3399s with a TDP 5 watt, do not worked on anything to save battery overall.

Also Opensource killed PP and PPP despite that PP,PPP was Opensource device. So if we continue supporting opensource it will kill the Librem 5 too eventually, in fact opensource already started to kill the librem5, however the L5 it is special device like ghidra level, so it will no so easy for opensource to kill it. Dont think i am delirious because i not.

Prepurchase Questions: Phone (Librem 5 or Liberty)

As you may not know, Librem 5 it is a full Industrial-Grade Phone, so it is super supa longevity adn, however driverS not ready. L5 it is first in the world True Autonomous device and Ghidra Phone capabilities. Not all Librem 5 consume energy equally, some are more powersave. Sadly Gnu PureOS Mobile is FAT which need Ozempic to maximize energy and performance. There are a lot unique thing that L5 can do than other phones just can NOT. So no matter if is a fancy google pixel…

Excuse me my big-endian english.

Sent from ppc64be.

[amosbatto]

@carlosgonz

@amosbatto

I suspect NXP told Purism that a 14nm version would be coming,

NXP i.MX 8M Plus is 14 nm for long time, do you mean 14nm for NXP i.MX 8M?

I’m talking about September 2019, when Purism announced the Fir batch. I suspect that NXP told Purism that a 14nm die shrink was coming soon for the i.MX 8M Quad, which is why Purism thought it could ship the Fir batch in Q3 2020. Then, NXP changed its mind and decided to design a new 14nm chip with a weak GPU and no DisplayPort Alt Mode support, and that was the i.MX 8M Plus, which was announced in March 2021.

@carlosgonz

However i wanted a Librem 5 Special Edition i.MX 8M Plus+ SOC featuring full gc7000 gpu

The i.MX 8M Plus has a lot of limitations, as I already explained on the Community FAQ.

There is no point upgrading to the Plus, when you get half the L2 cache and half the GPU cores, but only gets a 20% faster CPU. With the reduced cache, you are probably talking about 10% better CPU performance. Nobody sells a separate GC7000 chip, and most separate GPU chips are not designed for mobile processors. Adding two more chips (a separate GPU chip and a HDMI->DisplayPort converter chip) means redesigning an already crowded circuit board.

@carlosgonz

We do not need any next-gen socs chipsets for L5 because even NXP i.MX 8M it is sufficient; its just that we havent seen L5 working wonder due to a wrong and de-embedded firmware.
…
So Librem 5 it is an embedded device, not a desktop device.

I think you are confusing “embedded” with “mobile”. The Librem 5 generally wouldn’t be considered an embedded device. See this article:

Is an Android smartphone an embedded system? It is small, self-contained, and has limited input/output capabilities. Nevertheless, you can personalize it and download “apps” to your heart’s content. In that sense, it’s really more of a general purpose computing appliance. So I would say no, an Android phone is not an embedded system.

The Librem 5 is a convergent smartphone that supports both a mobile interface and an external desktop interface (over USB-C).
What firmware are you talking about? If you are talking about firmware-imx-8m, then I doubt there is much that can be improved there. Of course, we will never know since it is proprietary code.

[amosbatto]

@carlosgonz

Note that i fan for TEXAS Semiconductors, like Texas Instruments and Freescale so do not expect i speak good for Rockchips. But RK3588s it just not good for L5 serie.

The RK3588S is much better than the i.MX 8M Plus in terms of performance and is arguably better in terms of software freedom due to the work of Collabora and Ideas on Board on the RK3588.

SoC	Rockchip RK3588	NXP i.MX 8M Plus 1,2	NXP i.MX 8M Quad
Process	Samsung 8nm Low Power (8LPP) FinFET	Samsung 14nm LPC (Low Power Consumption) FinFET	TSMC 28nm planar
CPU	4x 2.4GHz Cortex-A76 (2MB L2), 4x 1.8GHz Cortex-A55 (0.5MB L2), 3MB L3;	4x 1.8Ghz Cortex-A53 (0.5MB L2); 800MHz Cortex-M7	4x 1.5Ghz Cortex-A53 (1MB L2); 266MHz Cortex-M4F
PassMark multi-core CPU	4707	918	831
PassMark single thread CPU	1533	455	390
GPU	ARM Mali-G610 MP4 (4x 256KB L2)	Vivante GC7000 UltraLite (2 cores)	Vivante GC7000 Lite (4 cores)
Graphics API	Vulkan 1.2, OpenGL ES 3.2, OpenCL 2.2	Vulkan 1.0, OpenGL ES 3.1, OpenCL 1.2	Vulkan 1.0, OpenGL ES 3.1, OpenCL 1.2
Shaders	256	8	16
Texture fillrate (GT/s)	32	0.8	1.6
FP32 performance (GFLOPS)	512	32	64
NPU	6 TOPS (3 cores)	Vivante VIP8000 2.3 TOPS	none
ISP	48MP or 2x 24MP, 8K@30, 4K@60, HDR, 3DNR, 2DNR, LSC, fisheye correction, dehaze	2x 12MP, 4K@45, HDR, 3A (auto-exposure, auto-focus, auto-white balance), fisheye correction	none
Camera interface	MIPI-CSI2 / DCPHY and DVP lanes (6 cameras)	dual 4-lane MIPI-CSI2 (2 cameras)	dual 4-lane MIPI-CSI2 (2 cameras)
Display	8K@60, 4K@120, 2x HDMI 2.1, eDP 1.3, 2x DP 1.4 (USB-C), 2x MIPI-DSI	4K@30, 1080p@60, HDMI 2.0b, 4-lane MIPI DSI, LVDS	HDMI 2.0a (4K@60), 4-lane MIPI DSI (1080p@60), eDP/DP 1.3 (4K@60)
VPU decode	8K@60 (H.265, VP9), 8K@30 (H.264), 4K@60 (AV1)	1080p@60 (H.265, H.264, VP9, VP8)	4K@60 (H.265, VP9), 4K@30 (H.264, VP8)
VPU encode	8K@30 (H.265, H.264)	1080p@60 (H.265, H.264)	none
RAM	RK3588: 32GB LPDDR4x/LPDDR5, RK3588S: 16GB LPDDR4x	8GB LPDDR4	4GB LPDDR4
USB	3x USB 3.1 Gen1 (5 Gbps), 2x USB 2.0 Host	2x USB 3.0/2.0	2x USB 3.0/2.0
Typical power	5 - 8 W (active)	2 - 4 W (active)

According to PassMark, the RK3588 has 5.1 times the multicore CPU performance and 3.4 times the single core CPU performance of the i.MX 8M Plus. iTayga says that the RK3588S should have the same CPU performance as the RK3588 over short bursts (under 30 seconds), but is 10% - 15% slower over long periods.

With an i.MX 8M Plus, you get the CPU performance of a low-end smartphone from 2015, but it will shoot video even worse than the current Librem 5, because the video will have to be processed by a GPU, which is frankly garbage. With the RK3588, Purism can offer a smartphone with CPU performance that is just a little slower than today’s low-end smartphone with a Snapdragon 4 Gen 4 processor, but it will be able to take photos and shoot video like a normal smartphone, and it will be able to offer a good external desktop, so you will want to use it as a portable PC.

Historically the i.MX processors were the best chips for embedded or mobile applications in terms of software freedom, because NXP made commits to mainline Linux to get its i.MX processors supported. NXP also provided good documentation without an NDA and a public forum for its i.MX processors.

However, NXP did a poor job of getting the i.MX 8M Quad chip supported in mainline Linux, which is why Purism had to do so many commits to mainline Linux for the chip. NXP also poorly documented how to use its MIPI-CSI2 interface, which is why it took Purism many months of painful trial and error to get the cameras in the Librem 5 to work.

Most of the new features in the i.MX 8M Plus are not supported in mainline Linux, because NXP has not bothered to work on getting them supported. The NPU only works because Ideas on Board paid Tomeu Vizoso to work on it. There are no open source drivers available for the Hantro H1/VC8000E VPU, so all video encoding will have to be done in software using the GPU and/or CPU. Because the GC7000 UltraLite GPU in the Plus is so weak, shooting video will likely be even worse than today’s Librem 5 with the i.MX 8M Quad.

In contrast, Rockchip has been working with Collabora to get the RK3588 supported in mainline Linux. At this point, the RK3588 is arguably better supported by FOSS drivers than the i.MX 8M Plus, and Collabora reports that it is working to get the ISP and H.264 hardware encoding supported in the RK3588 and lists H.265 encoding as a “TODO”.

The RK3588S will also be better for thermals and power consumption because it uses less energy and generates less heat per unit of processing power than the i.MX 8M Plus.

[carlosgonz]

Thanks for this 2 big and detailed post. I will check tomorow and reply.

re-thanks.

[amosbatto]

Despite everything that I mentioned in my prior post, there are some downsides to using the Rockchip RK3588S. Rockchip never published the documentation and source code for the RK3588 at its opensource.rock-chips.com site, and Rockchip recently took down that site at the end of 2025. On December 21, 2024, Jeff Geerling — the most influential reviewer in the Raspberry Pi alternative space — reported on X:

I was told Rockchip no longer considers RK3588 to be an ‘open source’ chip. In practice, that means Rockchip no longer contributes RK3588 code to open-source projects and they also decided not to sell RK3588 directly to SBC vendors.

See: Rockchip RK3588 No Longer “Open Source” — What It Means for SBC Community

On the other hand, Rockchip is still updating the code for the RK3588 at Github.

The other downside is that the RK3588S doesn’t have a real-time, low-power coprocessor, so it will be necessary for Purism to add an extra processor to the circuit board to boot the RK3588S and pass it the proprietary blob to train the timing on the Synopsis DDR PHY, similar to what Purism does with the Cortex-M4 coprocessor on the i.MX 8M Quad when booting the Librem 5.

Another possibility which I didn’t consider is the Allwinner A733 or the upcoming A838, because Allwinner has a bad reputation of not working with the Linux community. However, CNX Software reported in December 2024: " I was told that Allwinner was now back to the “open-source market” with the A733 and upcoming A838 octa-core Cortex-A78/A55 SoCs."

However, Collabora has done so much work on the RK3588/RK3588S, that I really can’t see Purism going with any other chip. Collabora appears to have the funding (probably from one of the SBC manufacturers) to keep working on the RK3558, so it will take very little work on Purism’s part to use the chip. It will be much easier than all the work that Purism had to do in order to use the i.MX 8M Quad in the Librem 5.