@Dwaff it is very odd and creepy that you are manipulating posts because you are “fed up”. You do not work for Purism. Let people express their frustration and if you dont like it, ignore it. It’s very dangerous for users who are not Purism employees to get in the middle of these situations.
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I disagree. I believe that @dwaff has a responsibility to ensure a respectful environment on the forums. I, for one, tire of all the self-righteous semi-slander that passes for criticism on this forum. I support anyone who does the ugly work of taking out the garbage and ensuring that the trolls don’t run amok like other forums like /r/Purism.
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Sort of a gray area when you advocate one person selectively censoring based upon how that one person opines.
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I removed the previous topic because it had no replies anyway. If I wanted to stick to the rules, this one would be deleted too:
I’m going to let this post be to show people what the fuss is about, but keep in mind that while criticism is acceptable, insults may get deleted.
EDIT: I meant to post it in the other thread, but the message is the same.
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Well to be honest, PURISM staff is extremely tolerant.
i remember couple of my posts where i was shooting directly into:
company organization - communication mess
product - l14 nasty electrical hot-fix present in currently sold units (my comments were far away from constructive)
couple others.
none of them got even flagged as “inappropriate”.
however even very tolerant people have own limits, and some people behaving like frustrated kids.
for example : they didn’t read terms and conditions of store, and now are very frustrated that they can’t just cancel order.
and now we have alot of shit floating on forum, because they’ve been learnt (by facebook and others) a rule: make a public noise, company will probably step down and do what you wish just to cover public noise.
for christ sake! peole! learn to read terms and conditions before you press accept!
using brain doesn’t hurt!
as i don’t like moderation of public forums… posts started because someone complains about refund policy , should be closed with short answer: you accepted terms and conditions of the store, Deal with it as an adult!
and if such kid will continue complaints , ban it.
as a community we have better things to do - like debuging pureboot , and helping others to solve issues, than listening kids whining…
that’s all
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I read @hedomi’s thread that you deleted and it doesn’t seem to violate those rules and certainly didn’t seem to warrant being deleted. He didn’t disrespect the staff. He was ranting about Purism, the company/entity–not any individual staff or person–about not being able to get his refund. And he only started insulting (trolling?/flaming?) another user after that user started manipulating his content.
You reference the forum rules. I can appreciate them because they at least add some transparency about expectations. But those rules (like many other forum rules) are problematic for a number of reasons, the following being what I think are most important:
- The rules are subjective–what is “trolling” or “flaming” to you may not be that to another user, which is why I still firmly believe that users who are not Purism employees should not be manipulating posts. They’re much less likely to be impartial or just flat out incorrect in their interpretation of one of those rules.
- The rules don’t address power-hungry non-Purism moderators who provoke other users by acting in a way that censors their posts. It’s okay for people to delete posts just because they don’t like the content, but it’s not okay for people to get upset and insult them about it? Very strange.
I’ve been mostly a lurker here, but it’s very disturbing watching the direction of this forum. How dissenting opinions are being “moderated” is dangerous for the Purism brand. If this continues, this place will just turn into a Purism circlejerk/echo-chamber, push potential new customers away, and destroy Purism’s reputation in the process.
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That’s actually right - I deleted the thread with 0 comments because it was a duplicate, not because it was calling names.
Posts which get hidden by users are not getting hidden permanently until a moderator sees them (that usually happens even on weekends), so those who get upset can get at most a temporary victory.
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Dear @hedomi,
Thank you for sharing your feeling with us, personally I can understand how you feel.
In my experience I find it easier to change something that I control than ask others or external entity to change.
I think that a good experience can be taken from this situation. I believe that in the future you might want to avoid buying any pre-order products or service, I believe that you expect a different offer.
Or if not pre-order product don’t buy something while there is a global pandemic and expect them to be delivered next day.
I believe that you will only grow up by going trough this frustrating experience, and we as a community will also be happy to see you happy.
Please excuse my bad syntax as English is not my 1st language.
Cheers
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That is not what privacy is.
Privacy is your right to communicate with someone (e.g. Purism) privately and not have it show up in public or in the possession of a third party.
Writing in a public forum (whether writing BS, defamatory material or helpful stuff) is the opposite of privacy.
A commitment to privacy is not a commitment to freedom of speech, although any given person might support both to some variable degree.
Forum rules suggest that you don’t double-post / cross-post, so if an existing topic already covers your point, you should add to that existing topic.
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If I’m in a bar having a drink, and some person bursts in, yells at no-one in particular how their drink is not delivered yet and overthrows chairs and tables - I reserve the right to ask them to leave, even if I do not run the place. I don’t have to put up with such behavior.
No. My drink might get spilled if I allowed that to continue unchecked.
Expressing frustration has its limits and hedomi crossed the line, multiple times.
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This is off-topic and has no relations to the main topic context. @dcz please act according to forum rules. I believe the rules are applied to all people on the same level not only to me, yes?
I am waiting you will hide/delete this comment as you did with mines.
Oh dear, I think an enormous disappointment is in store for you:
- I did not post any duplicates, so no posts of mine will get deleted on based on this ground.
- Purism did not hide any of your posts - it were other users, tired of your ramblings. So if moderation does exactly as they did with your posts, nothing will happen.
- I see you posting same angry off-topic messages in multiple threads, (and getting them flagged before I even get close to them), so calling for moderator attention might work against you.
I would not be surprised nor moved, if this particular post is deleted. It is off-topic (the previous one is not, but you seem unable to grasp the metaphor).
I also think this thread should be closed - it is clearly going nowhere.
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Who are you to judge what people should say or not?
Who are you to judge what you say is appropriate?
Let me tell you who I am.
I am the customer who paid the money for the product.
I am the customer who did not get the product.
I am the customer who wants to cancel his order.
I am the customer who has the right for cancelling the order.
I am the customer who does not want the product.
I am the customer who wants his money back.
Whatever shit this product is I DO NOT WANT IT. Return my money.
Do I have such rights?
So if you think that you are right person, then as you demand the forum rules are being followed now please demand the same rights for me as well from the company. Ask them to return my money. Even if it is the Lamborghini for free I do not want it from Purism, return my money.
Is it clear?
So @Dwaff who are you to judge?
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Let’s keep this topic for your complaint about Purism customers flagging your comments.
Let’s keep the original topic(s) for your complaint about the non-delivery of your product. (You are by no means unique in that regard. You can pick your topic to add to.)
Regardless of the legitimacy of any complaint that you have - there is a good way to express it and a bad way to express it. If a new forum user is this crazy guy who bursts in, yelling and shouting and throwing things (to borrow from @Dwaff), can you understand that that will be perceived by many Purism customers as a bad way to express it?
If I ran Purism, your forum account would have been closed. Simples. Lucky for you I am just a humble Purism customer.
I see that Purism has suspended your account.
This topic would appear to be in the wrong category.
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Perhaps in this hedomi’s case it can be attributed to this, but generally speaking, it’s a bit more complicated than that. At some point the website said that you could cancel your preorder at any time for a full refund. Later they changed this, so that you could only cancel when it was your turn in the queue. That’s all fine and well; a company is allowed to change its terms and conditions for new orders. And therein lies the problem: people who ordered before that change found they also couldn’t get a refund anymore. This breaks the contract they had with Purism: at the time they entered into the agreement, the conditions clearly stated that they could cancel and get a refund any time they wished (prior to shipping, obviously). As far as I know, Purism has never publicly acknowledged this, nor given any explanation. That’s what a lot of the frustration regarding refunds is about.
Furthermore, you joined less than half a year ago, so you may not know the history. But a lot of stuff happened before you joined us. It’s gotten better now, but there was a time when Purism would keep radio silence for months, leading people to speculate. Then, out of the blue, they’d send out optimistic emails promising they’d reach certain milestones by a given date. So you waited anxiously for an update… and waited… And a week, maybe two after the deadline had passed, you’d finally receive an update that they missed the deadline. Or that time when they creatively redefined the word “shipping” so they could claim they were “shipping” the first units, when in fact all they did was receive the first batch of internal test/development units.
There’s a lot of history here, and the people who were early with their money are rightfully frustrated. Just because Purism has cleaned up their act a bit and gotten a lot better at communicating doesn’t mean the mistakes of the past weren’t made, or no longer affect the present. And sure, right now there’s this pandemic wreaking havoc on the supply lines. But the project was problematic even before someone noticed a weird cough in Wuhan. And the shortage of parts has no bearing on the software, which while having made a lot of progress lately, right now is still on the level we’d expected back in 2018 (and with a questionable battery life to boot).
And one could go on: you pay for a “working phone” in 2018, and in 2020 you’re being asked to help fund the software for it. Supply shortages hit the industry, and suddenly it doesn’t matter when you ordered, if you didn’t order the more expensive USA version, you’re put on hold as they’re prioritising that. Which would be somewhat acceptable if there’s a good explanation why those same parts are available for the US factory but not the Chinese one, but if you then top that off with “but you can always pay extra to upgrade to the US version and skip the line”, that’s rather questionable. Especially if it then turns out that you aren’t able to meet the delivery dates you published on your website for those either.
So yes, there is cause for frustration, even if things are improving lately. And there’s still stuff going on that makes people rightfully question Purism’s financial situation, and their chances of ever seeing their preorder materialise. Hopefully in 2026 we’ll all have our phones and can have a good laugh about this whole affair…
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There is a reality here that has been commented on MANY MANY times. I’ll summarize to make my point easier to digest:
First the issue of building a Linux Phone the way Purism envisioned. Ubuntu tried. They received over 4 million in crowd funding but did not reach their goal. I suspect that what Ubuntu raised was more than Purism has made on pre-order funding for the Librem 5. So was Ubuntu greedy? Nope, they were realistic, and the product history of the Librem 5 is proof of that. There is nothing wrong with Purism’s vision. It is noble in fact. But the truth is, making a pure Linux phone was always going to cost WAY more than ~$500 per phone. They couldn’t ask for $1500 in the crowd funding or no one would have supported it, yet that number is probably more realistic of a cost for the phone. Yet Purism has trudged on, raising funds anyway it can. The work they have done, as pointed out by amosbatto, is significant and important. Because of it, Purism is crucial to the mobile movement within Linux. If Purism were to fail, so too, would the dreams of a Linux phone being a fully functional thing this decade.
Management is pretty unethical from what I can tell. Their track record here is the evidence. However the developers are fighting the good fight. I think there is a pretty clear separation there. They each know that what they want doesn’t really happen if Purism fails.
The ends simply do not justify the means, and yet this is how Purism’s management is running things.
There are many people who understand all of this and are still here, because Purism really can’t fail without being a big problem for all Linux users.
That being said, coming here and throwing a fit despite being asked to desist is not something anyone is entitled to, as Dwaff has clearly articulated MANY times.
You either except the reality of the situation, or you use your means to get away and recover what you can. Coming to the Purism forums with the intention of slandering the company more, just doesn’t make sense. The people who obviously support the company are going to be here. Go to Reddit and create a new cult of Purism angst. You might be successful there. (I’m not talking about hedomi here exclusively, but in general to all these kinds of threads. I really don’t wish to argue with hedomi, and simply will not.)
I am curious though if other forum members see things this way?
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got your point , and partially agree.
users have right to be frustrated.
Purism approach to the problem is far from something acceptable.
especially changing rules of a game during a game.
in EU from law perspective such change of policy would not work backward in time. so order from time before will not be affected i don’t know how it works in US, but rule that law don’t work backward in time is Ancient rule.
so technically Lawsuit is easy to win.
etc.
However,
this forum, any forum isn’t a place to unload frustrations. here we are discussing issues with software , hardware , other related topics.
opening over and over topic with message : “fuck purism, purism is worst company ever” , other similar stuff, will not change single thing.
also take for a review number of users.
how amny of us actually have librem 5 , librem 14 , and are happy, and how many users here complains.
it’s small number, and most of them doing it in a way that not break rules of forum, with respect…
i was one of them, but happy day came and i got my long waited laptop…
i see nothing bad in a fact that people demanding they rights, what is a problem is a form of those complaints.
That would entirely depend on what you mean when you say things like “throwing a fit” or “slandering”, as that’s subjective. Taken at face value, I agree with what you say. However, some people would call any form of criticism “slander”, and would classify any expression of frustration as “throwing a fit”.
I believe that you have the right to ask questions, and express your frustration when you don’t get the answers you have a right to. And having invested your money, you certainly have a right to answers to questions pertaining the unilateral changes in agreement, or inquiries into the cause of delays vs. the promised delivery dates.
You can’t hold a company accountable if you’re not allowed to ask questions or express your frustration at them when they stonewall you or fail to live up to their part of the agreement.
Yup, I concur.
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