[Refund Req] Librem 5 PREORDER from 2018-Sept-4, estimated for Q1-2022

Irrelevant. They are saying that you’re not getting it for months. The rest is semantics. If someone is confused by it, they can email and ask. Not complicated. Just my opinion (and I paid my dues waiting for Purism product for most of the year).

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The delay itself is only a part of the problem. And not the biggest one.

Back when I placed my order on 5 July 2021, the L5 USA page was saying “Now shipping! Place your order now, get in approximately in 6 to 8 weeks!”. (I had actually asked the support about those 6-8 weeks before placing the order, was told about 90 days instead and thought “okay, 8 weeks is approximate, 90 days would be the maximum”).

On the 91st day after my order was placed, the site was still showing “Now shipping! … approximately in 6 to 8 weeks!”. And it was continuously showing that for many more weeks after that.

Now, who the fuck were those units “Now shipping!” to on the 91st day after placing my order? Why the fuck was I not one of those recipients? As I was not one of them, why the fuck was it still showing “in 6 to 8 weeks!”? Why the fuck did I not receive an email with apologies for the delay on the 91st day and offered immediate refund? Why the fuck would they TODAY not process my refund immediately but estimate several weeks for it?

The answers are: the timeframe estimations were reckless bullshit aimed to keep people placing orders. They knew the chances to meet those estimations were very dicey, yet they kept saying “get in approximately in 6 to 8 weeks!” — because if they said the truth “production is slowed down / paused, we don’t know when it will be resumed” people would stop placing orders, and they did not want that.
Now they don’t have cash on hands to process refunds when requested. Instead, they wait for people to place new orders and then maybe will use that money for refunds.

That is exactly what has completely ruined my once reasonably strong trust in Purism. If they are bullshitting people like that, how the fuck can I trust my data to their soft/hardware? This is the main problem, not the delay.

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I understand your frustration but it reminds me of something else I ordered early in the year. A vehicle accessory that cost me thousands of dollars. I tracked it across two oceans and a dozen countries only to have it sit in port for two months and anchored out at sea for another month. Then when it finally made it to the states, it has been another month and half in a warehouse. Every step along the way, the supplier was promising my vendor that it would be there soon… just another couple of weeks, etc. Over and over again. The problem in situations like this is that the chain of custody is incentivized to bullshit the vendors more than vendors are incentivized to bullshit customers. So it’s very likely that Purism has been getting the run around on the back end of everything and their estimates were still made in good faith. I know you probably won’t believe me, and that’s fine. I don’t “believe” me either. It’s just what I think likely happened. If anything, Purism is guilty of being overly optimistic, but I don’t think were intentionally lying to people. I really don’t. And I’ve been around this world and had a lot of experiences. I’m not a naive guy. Take that for what it is.

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Well, it’s just that humanity is still trying to decipher the Puri language, still a quest for its Rosetta stone (rumors say it could be on the dark side of the Moon) . But right now, after long research, it is believed that the Puri phrase, ’estimate based on our best information’ means – and this is the opinion of many reputable experts in the field – ’we have no idea when we can do that’. This is considered the greatest breakthough in translation of Puri.

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Which recent post? Please provide a link if possible. It helps to clarify things.

The problem here is a lack of communication and mutual understanding. The customer isn’t interested in the details of the stock system. They have an understanding of the term “in stock” to mean “available for me to buy” not the more technically correct “in our inventory”. It doesn’t help to communicate the state of the inventory if it confuses the customer into thinking that a product is available to buy when it is not, unless the aim is to obfuscate.

Many companies will list a number of units available, especially if there is only a limited number left. The understanding is that those units are actually available to buy and the number informs how many can be ordered.

Which recent post? Please provide a link if possible. It helps to clarify things.

The customer isn’t interested in the details of the stock system.

I agree… which is why a semantic debate about “in stock” seems pedantic to me. The meaningful information is lead time. If a vendor tells me “in stock with a lead time of three months” all I hear is “three months”.

Many companies will list a number of units available, especially if there is only a limited number left.

That’s true. Many do have carts that are linked to live inventory. But most online vendors don’t have that. It’s just “available”, “in stock”, “ships in x time” etc. Many vendors also say in stock and then after ordering, they send an email saying it’s back ordered. Some companies are disorganized. Some are scammers. But all of companies have been feeling the impact of the past two years. I first purchased from Purism almost 4 years ago, so I know they are an honest company that has been hit hard by supply chain problems. That may be anecdotal, but it’s really what I think.

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As a consumer, saying “in stock” is pedantic sounds absurd. I truly can think of no other companies that I’ve made purchases from that have such an obscure self-definition of what “in stock” means. If it’s “in stock,” it can be shipped. If it’s not able to be shipped, it’s not “in stock.” This is why online retailers will have listings that say something like “out of stock”/“backordered”/etc. If it’s not available to be shipped to the customer buying the product, it’s not “in stock” for that customer.


The only reason stock status is ever relevant is to give the buyer a sense of when they might receive a product. That’s why lead time trumps stock status. Most buyers want to know when they will get a something, not the location of the thing before they get it.

I will buy something that is “out of stock” with a lead time of one week before I will buy something that is “in stock” with a lead time of 12 weeks. Stock status is mostly meaningless when lead times are available.

Purism has always given lead times which makes semantic discussions about the word stock all the more meaningless.

I’m sorry, but if Purism after 7 years of selling products still generates so much confusions, I say they are just a bunch of irresponsible amateurs (assuming non-intention!). How do you trust your data with them???

With every other company’s (i.e. apparently not Purism’s) definition of “in stock,” seeing a product is “in stock” is relevant to me because it tells me the company actually has the product to ship. A “lead time” which isn’t every guaranteed isn’t helpful to me, as it could be (and apparently has been for other customers) delayed indefinitely.

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I’m sorry, but if Purism after 7 years of selling products still generates so much confusions,

I’m not confused.

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That would makes sense except for the fact that we are talking about in stock items with very long lead times.

There are plenty of examples of in stock items that are not available to deliver. I purchased a new vehicle early this year. It was in stock. I had to wait several months because of a minor recall and supply chain problems in repairing it. Stock is only part of the equation. What matters most is the fulfillment of the order… which is best estimated with a lead time. I’ve been ordering things through the mail since before there was a world wide web. I’m familiar with the process.

I seriously cannot think of any other company that uses “in stock” and very long lead times in this manner. Such self-definition of words is at the best crazy odd, or at the worst intentionally deceitful. Being as Purism still has “in stock” and “now shipping!” on their webpages regarding the Librem 5 USA, I’m having to do mental gymnastics to think that they are not being disingenuous.

The key point here isn’t that you or I understand what may or may not be meant by “in stock” or how to interpret it using information about lead times. The point is that customers – even those who have had to adapt to a difficult online world full of shortages – don’t share this interpretation.

This is what they might understand by it:

Or perhaps this:

Here’s a fairly common definition of “lead time”:

With that in mind, if a potential customer looks at the the table and can’t figure out what “in stock” with a lead time means, it’s a communication issue. If it requires an detailed explanation about supply chains then they are probably not going to be interested.

If the lead time is due to finding the time to take the “in stock” item, perform checks, prepare it for shipping and send it out, perhaps with a reduced staff, then people are likely to understand. It could be clarified that this is the case. If the reason is some supply chain esoterica then explaining it may lead to frustration. Purism is, after all, selling to end-users more than enterprises via their online store.


For the record, I truly do hope that Purism is doing their best. I ordered a L5 USA because I want the Librem 5 and because I want to support manufacturing in the USA. I really do hope that they deliver it in the 90 days of lead time I was told when I made the purchase, that I understood to mean they would guarantee it shipped by 90 days (which was also confirmed by a Purism support technician). If the Librem 5 is a decent device, I’ll even give Purism free good press by doing a Librem 5 review video. I’m not trying to be a hater. I’m just finding the defense of their practices…difficult to follow.

:sweat_smile: :sweat_smile: :rofl: :joy: :joy: Good luck with that. You’ll be lucky if it’s 90 months.

It surely is a communication issue.
Even if there might be a shipping-technical definition of “in stock” which means something else than common-language dictionaries tell (and things like this happen with many flavors of technical jargon!), ordering from an online shop surely does not imply any customer will take classes to figure out what common-sense words on the shop mean. If any shop owner wants to suggest to their customers that a word does have a special meaning, they have to look for an abstruse uncommon word, or create a new word out of thin air; otherwise the shop owner needs to talk a language his customers understand. The shop owner might try to educate its customers, but this is a slow and painful process.
The very moment Purism started selling to non-professional buyers they implicitly accepted this, knowing or not.
Communication problems can be overcome, usually through communicating more; however it takes time, wordy precision in clearing definitions and goodwill from both sides. A few blog posts here and there are simply not sufficient to offset built-up frustration and unmet expectations.

Has anyone actually bothered to email support and ask when the phone can be expected? Or is it more gratifying to feed impatience?

Disclaimer: Mine is a Librem 5 USA.

I asked when I could expect mine and was told 6-8 weeks–this was even though I was in batch Dogwood originally.

This is exactly what the site told people ordering fresh at that time. Dogwood, in other words, meant nothing.

I have, and I was told that Purism “can guarantee we will deliver your Librem 5 USA by early february” (i.e. within the 90 day lead time from my order that was placed on November 5). That said, Kyle Rankin told me in another thread that

so I’m not sure whether Purism is or is not guaranteeing that they will ship my L5 USA within 90 days of the order.