Can I ask for a refund?

hello ! it’s your decision obviously but you could wait a bit more and see when your actual order arrives. if you ordered fairly recently you might not get yours untill q2 2020 but i understand if you need the $ right now.

You can absolutely ask for a refund. I asked for one a few weeks back and I was able to get it. I’d hurry if I was you because I suspect there are going to be a lot more refund requests in the coming days especially after the interview posted on Phoronix this morning.

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That is a pretty damaging interview, but also very possibly just anger based slander. I don’t believe Purism needs to report to us, the general public / customer, the way in which the company is run. What is produced is a bigger indicator of such things.

I do wonder if there will be an official response regarding this. (I should add that I don’t really think one is necessary.)

One thing I find comical about the FOSS crowds, are their willingness to eat their own. It is a valley of ivory towers doing battle with each other, instead of the fabled team work across boundaries for the common good, which FOSS supposedly champions. Instead of showing the dirty laundry, they should have been doing more to champion the cause, not depart and hope it all fails.


I didn’t see a lot there that was damaging. Or rather, nothing there that any level headed person with good emotional control would see as damaging. Key points in the interview:

  • Funding uncertainty lead to difficulty with timely payroll
  • Shifting narrative regarding funding, pricing, and another financial decisions leads to difficulty in deliverables targets
  • Accusations of toxic work environment

My reactions are thusly - first and foremost, with all that shade thrown perhaps the staff member could share with us alternative decisions that would improve the outcomes of past difficulties? And after that, how is interviewee complicit in the toxic work environment themselves? An underlying assumption is that the leadership team is directly responsible for difficult work environment when their mistake might merely be the decision to retain disruptive talent.

I agree with your observation, @2disbetter, FOSS is absolutely willing to eat their own. There’s much in the way of ego and little in the way of self-awareness. It’s an industry trope that is oddly amplified in this specific domain.


That’s something I thought about also. I have a kind of theory about it: many of these folks who eat their own are programmers. I’m also a programmer, and I suspect that as a programmer you sometimes may make the mistake of acting towards other people in the same way you act when you find a bug in your code. Having spotted the bug you just don’t let go, you will stubbornly hang on to it and keep digging until you have found the root cause and then fix that. That can be a good way of doing things in relation to bugs, the end result is often that you help improving things this way. However, if the problem you found, the “bug”, is not really a bug in code but instead it is another human being who did/said something wrong, then such an uncompromising approach will rarely do any good, it will be harmful. When a person did something that you did not like, it is often much better to let that go and move on. Turn the other cheek, and so on.


You’re still here? I thought you said

But anyway, an interview from an angry ex-employee who wasn’t involved with the phone development at any point, but especially who hasn’t even been part of the company for over a year, isn’t going to change my opinion. And for Zlatan to say the Pinephone, a proprietary, underpowered, unsupported device, is essentially a better version of the Librem 5, really puts the nail in the coffin on any credibility this interview had for me.


It has the reek of character assassination.


in practice in the phoronix interview it is said:

  • that Todd sometimes can’t be seen (maybe he does something else, possible with a company);
  • that there have been delays in salary payments (but they have been paid);
  • that computers cost too much (this is the most beautiful of all. There are no other laptops with the features of those laptops regarding the work done to make them “free”).
  • that there is tension in society (and I would like to see what they are doing and the million problems they have).

I don’t see any problems


what i don’t get is why after all this time he can’t drop it. i mean i could understand if he was currently unemployed (knock on wood) but if he is employed then he should burry the “dead” and move on - not dig deeper.

i don’t work for Purism but i think that you’d be hard pressed to find any employer in free-software that would give you an easy time especially if it’s open-hardware related … but what do i know right ?

and what’s with the 18 hour workdays ? i mean doing that sort of intense mental activity for too much will get you killed. he must be exaggerating. at least i hope so. or else it’s Apple-in-China-workers 2.0 :skull:

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Zlatan seems to be honest, dedicated and hard working guy. Genuine about about his all experience and time at Purism.
The issue here, is difference in the approach for projects of this kind. Unless you have a backing of a billion dollar company, it has to get messy. And that’s when you have to push harder - “fake it til you make it” in this stupid business world , unfortunately. Purism shot way too far -above and beyond the league of much bigger players. It was inevitable to run into these hurdles. Could it have been done differently and better? Sure. But, to put it in tennis terms , when you play the big game, in order to win, you gotta hit it hard and right on the line. Risky, but rewarding. Playing safe, leads to defeat.
The bigger issue I find here, is his decision to come out with this at this super sensitive time. Time when they need all the funds to ramp up the production.
It’s the tie-breaker in the 5th set (sorry 4 another tennis reference) and he is yelling “Out” from the crowd during the play. It’s like throwing oil and rolls in front of the runner at the finish line.
He should have been more aware of the weight of his words at this stage. That’s where I have a hard time believing him when he said how he wants it to succeed. If he was honest about that, he would have waited longer than NDA allowed to talk in public.Unless he is a naive clueless nerd, I can’t see this interview as anything but malicious act - payback of sort.


Or throwing a stick!


I remember some time ago when two of my coworkers were arguing over what was better - Xbox or PlayStation 2 (kind of gives you the timeframe :slight_smile:) And these were both computer programmers, both had Bachelor’s degrees, etc.

It was getting heated. I felt like “who cares?”

Something in our nature seems to make us want to pick sides and tear the other side down. Even when it doesn’t matter. We want to “cheer on our team”.

Everything I’ve seen from Phoronix is anti-Purism. And pro-Pine64. I’m talking about the articles, not the comments, which seem split fairly evenly

To a certain extent if feels like the Xbox versus PlayStation 2 again. It feels silly.

I want both to succeed. I REALLY want the Librem 5 to succeed, since Purism is pushing so much further in their efforts. But we need low-cost Linux phones too. And I think the PinePhone will end up having a lot of Purism-written software on it.

I started ignoring Phoronix months ago, because they don’t seem balanced.

A guy complaining about Purism who worked there over a year ago? Well, Purism is still here. They’ve made the phone. Looks like a number of improvements from Aspen to Birch. And I’m looking forward to one as soon as my turn comes around.

Meanwhile, I’ll let those who want to fight over “what’s better” have their (childish) fun. But I don’t have to listen to them.


I agree 350 would have been a more realistic price for the L5 though. And it would drawn in more order , more buzz , better deal with hardware manufacturers due to larger batch sizes . But , it’s not my company . Todd can do as he sees fit and while I think this device is overpriced Im certainly not going to cancel my order .

I knew it was overpriced as soon as I saw the specs. Yes they have been working with libhandy to tweak apps to render correctly . And it is all upstreamed and ect ect . But all that could have just as easily been paid for by smaller profit margin per device due to the lower hardware prices for larger batch sizes and the increase numbers of orders in general .

But again it’s not my company . If Purism thinks I personally should be responsible for 50% more profit margin per device . I guess that sucks for me but again I dont really care.

I knew what I was getting into once I had placed my order . They put the Gnome Linux phone on the hook and I took it !

All the rest sounds like a bitter employee that didn’t like how the boss did things.

So , I overpaid for my L5 and I could really care less. hahaha That’s the beauty of free market capitalism . If I felt too strongly about the issue no one was forcing me to buy it .

Cannot wait to get my Librem 5 .


Anyway, how many dollars did you value your privacy at?

Could I get a phone with better specs for a lower headline price? Of course, but that doesn’t take into account that in doing so I am also selling myself (to corporations, to government).

Everyone who has ordered the L5 knows what they are paying and knows what they are getting. As you say, noone is forcing them to buy.

The sad thing is that everyone who instead buys a surveillance phone, probably doesn’t know the true price that they are paying.


350 would have been a correct price ???
2 years of work with 6 workers (but now there are more of them and I’m only considering the workers). How much is a worker in charge of a project paid? calculate it for 2 years. multiplied by 6 (the workers) add the salaries of the remaining personnel. add taxes and contributions. Calculate how much it costs to keep the structure upright (cleaning, taxes, electricity, etc.) add business trips. and still other voices are missing …
350 is correct ???


@Some_dude36 was probably talking about realistic market price and a decent margin of profit considering the hardware value. But, that can only apply in a vacuum, or rather for a company that’s been already established in smartphone industry. Building from a scratch comes with crazy costs. There are so many legal fees to pay: contracts to be written up, licensing, patents. Then, testing w manufacturers, molds, prototypes, storage, packaging, shipping, returns & exchange program (spare parts, pre paid shipping, etc.), final assembly line in US (electricity, equipment )… On top of all out right costs you have hidden and awaiting costs, that you have to be ready for.
When you are just starting up, it’s inevitable to run into “unpredictable” problems and without extra cash cushion you are going down in no time.
That’s the rule with just about any business. Manufacturing is the most sensitive.
So, 350$ would have been detrimental for this project , under these circumstances.


Was this not a crowd funded project ? Did WE not pay for this thing ? Yea , our privacy being respected is a great thing but our privacy didn’t cost Purism any more than a few switches and looking for hardware that could be run with open source drivers.

Electricity ? Come on now . You see how much their laptops are ? Purism is not losing money here. And I don’t think they would have lost money with a cheaper device. It would have simply come in more orders. 350 would have been an appropriate upcharge to a pinephone and they would have had double the orders making the same money . Probably more money because their component purchases would have assuredly cheaper due to larger batch discounts.

People would have been ALL OVER this device at 350 . And seeing that they paid no where near 350 per device they would have still made that money back .

I run a business myself so I mean the logistics in this case are quite clear .

As I said though , I’m not complaining . I paid 649.00 and would have paid 700 . No worries. I would just have rather split the R&D of this device with twice the people and paid half the price . It is what it is .


Such earnestness leads me to believe that he’s thinking he’s genuinely doing the right thing; the question I have is this, what is his intended outcome for the interview? Is he trying to, “warn the world”? Is it revenge he feels entitled to? I’m confused as to why give the interview? To what end?


I agree. And asking myself: Is this some kind of crime that Mr. Zlatan Todoric left Purism? Is this some kind of advantage that @jaylittle is gaining for himself by knowing that ex-CTO from Purism left this company or crowd funded project, for his individual or because of his family reasons that, for whatever reason, doesn’t need to be made public here or anywhere else? What I’ve learned from my mother when I was teenager is that I claimed that I never broke some of the very fine drinking glasses (like for wine). She replied: “You have right, but this is just because you’d newer washed one/any of those.” To make it short, I didn’t contribute to Purism projects at all as I cannot (I am or will be just another user). Therefore I like to say big thank you @zlatan-todoric for all of your build up contribution that still keeps Purism alive! Again, I see Zlatan (golden-boy when translated) as contributor, and just someone that left his Purism family because it was time to move on, for whatever reason and even if his own decision was at the time somehow without real ground to make such, here is nothing to be judged (if Purism self have nothing further to say/add).


Oh you should see the other things people who are dropping his name are saying. I’m personally glad he agreed to the interview because nobody needs that sort of association.

I’m not saying I can’t have empathy for the guy but… Westinghouse, Smythe, Bezos; Visionaries and revolutionaries have always prioritized getting on with doing what needs to be done over being popular. It should be expected that Weaver is going to do whatever he needs to do to make this happen…even if that means turning into Guy Smiley. He’s got my thanks :slight_smile:

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