Chestnut shipping

pit · December 22, 2019, 9:19am

@EU-customers:

The time I bought the phone purism clearly said (wrote and advertised with) that they will ship the phones from Germany. “we will be shipping all German (and hopefully EU orders in general) from Germany.” (2017 phone faq)

On July 27, 2019 @nicole.faerber said, “Concerning shipping and handling from and within EUR, like I said, we are actively working on it and I sincerely hope that we will have this sorted out until we start shipping the phone. If plans work out, then we will be able to ship from a place which has a EU VAT tax ID…”

Why haven’t plans worked out yet? I sincerely hope that for Evergreen the plan has worked out and purism keeps its promise.

Quarnero · December 22, 2019, 6:52pm

Here we talk about another developer device (Chestnut) that is perhaps missing CE marking and therefore cannot be delivered other than as is at the moment. This delivery issue is for myself complex too, but I can imagine good coordination with subjects involved if customs declaration CN 23 isn’t missing.

@EU-customers, please search for term “free circulation” within the Blue Guide, EUR-Lex Document 52016XC0726(02), as there is to be find how this import might change with Evergreen (not before) … how to do/manage prepaid VAT delivery … if coordinated by someone as direct (legal) representative that, as mentioned, “will be able to ship from a place which has a EU VAT tax ID”.

P.S. Attached CN 23 form is German one, within above post is English/French.

Debcool · December 23, 2019, 6:50pm

Salut,

Back in october 2017, I wrote this post why-purism-should-send-an-contribution-document-instead-of-an-invoice.

Would not it be much easier to get one official document from the company that is certifying that we did contribute to a project by making a donation (wich we did for what I recall) and that the content of the parcel is a reward for it.

Is that so hard to do?

Beware Purism! Winter is here and the call for a refund is getting clother and clother…

spaetz · December 23, 2019, 9:29pm

Sorry, but if it was that easy to prevent customs legally, all those chinese sellers would all be over this to accept “donations” and send out “free rewards” in return to circumvent customs. However, that does not work out in real life.

Tatatirci · December 24, 2019, 12:31am

It wouldn’t matter . The tax and customs are about the value of the brand new product not the “selling” price. In this case it’s even worse , because it can be perceived as “investment” , right ? So, the individual potentially can make money.
For example, when I was getting the “discounted” price on carrier phones , I was paying 50-200 dollars for the phone, but my tax was always calculated at the actual price of the phone before applied discounts.
Imported used cars and motorcycles never get taxed based on a selling price. Not to mention the brand new ones. I’ve done that shipment to Europe as well

spaetz · December 24, 2019, 4:32am

Are you trying to threaten or scare purism here? After all, the ripoff handling fees by carriers are not their fault. The one thing they have claimed in the past indeed, Is to send German customers devices from within Germany.
SCNR; good to get all your clothers in winter, it can get darn cold on the wall. Good if you have a nice handwarming L5 in your pocket during winter.

antonis · December 24, 2019, 8:32am

Nope. They have clearly promised to send the phone to all EU countries from within Europe. Not just to German clients. And I have proof for that. Both announcements and emails when I asked them.

spaetz · December 24, 2019, 9:16am

I am not doubting you, but do you have a reference for that? All I remember is the above quoted:

On July 27, 2019 @nicole.faerber said, “Concerning shipping and handling from and within EUR, like I said, we are actively working on it and I sincerely hope that we will have this sorted out until we start shipping the phone. If plans work out, then we will be able to ship from a place which has a EU VAT tax ID…” (emphasis mine)

kieran · December 24, 2019, 10:55am

The distinction may not be relevant because perhaps no EU customers will be supplied from within the EU, at least for Chestnut.

In the future, who can say? They may still be attempting to get on top of the EU bureaucracy in time for Evergreen.

Quarnero · December 24, 2019, 1:51pm

In my broken English, I wouldn’t not define/register this as something attempting (to get on top) but as focusing to succeed on their plans/efforts, IMHO. For example, in Germany exists the reduced VAT rate of 7% and it is based on EU regulation (Supplier’s declaration of conformity based on DIN EN ISO/IEC 17050-1:2010-08). Evergreen might not come under 19% of VAT as it is shown within in case of this fair trade electronics product, but who knows (as this is might be something attempting, expensive and not easy to achieve). Link provided thanks to @balduin. Any company within EU that follows related regulation(s) can get there, but it’s not easy to get there though. We are familiar with the current situation on the market and therefore please don’t consider this as pushing things even more in the wrong direction, in contrary. Purism is doing already their best, I believe so, of what is achievable by following established legal rules/certifications on the EU free market.

Debcool · December 24, 2019, 5:16pm

From my experiences,

Crowdfunding Reward + free delivrery cost = 0 Importation Taxes/fees + 0 VAT = 0€

We are talking about a reward here, not a purchase!. We did not buy anything.

Of course, you’ll have to prove it to the custom as I did for my Pine64 by following the appropriate procedure then three days later the parcel was delivered. They didn’t even open it…

Here in Belgium, if the total amount is less than 25€ =>> no importation taxes. if the amount is more than 25€ but less than 125€ a flat fee is applied + VAT.
More than 125€, the fee will go to the moon…
In both cases, VAT is applied on the delivrery cost if there is any.
Also, If you have paid in a foreing currency, you’ll have to do the convertion between both currencies by applying the convertion rate of the day of the purchase(s).

If Purism has chosen a carrier that is adding more shit in the fan, tis something completly different.

“Are you trying to threaten or scare purism here?”

Well these are your words not mine. I am not. I’ve been more than patient until now as many others probably have been too. I am starting to get tired about how this project has been going on and there still are too much “may be” for the future. So, I did make both a warning and a joke/playword by quoting some reply from GoT. That’s it. Now, if you want to see something else in it that’s fine with me.

@Tatatirci

Doesn’t matter. Again, what we are supposed to receive(if we will…) is a reward.
ONE reward! Getting more than one would obviously be considered as a purchase with the intention to sell them afterward.
We did not invest in anything. This was most certainly not an IPO.

@antonis

You are absolutly right.
On the crowdfunding page, Purism cleary said/claimed “free worldwide shipping” and also in the FAQ about the shipping cost and the delivrery from Germany to UK/EU contry.

Here are my printscreens that are confirming these statements:

Caliga · December 24, 2019, 6:32pm

What’s funny to me is that you

insist you made a donation, not a purchase
think about getting a refund of your “donation” two years later because the “gift” might cost taxes and is therefore different from how the gift was promised

I think you can’t have it both ways

Anyway, I don’t think you get less than what was promised. Inside is also a link to the archived campaign page, no screenshots needed.
Overall I think we made a good deal.

Tatatirci · December 25, 2019, 5:41pm

@Debcool

IDK what to think but that your whole anectodal experience is just a testimony of one agent / agency incompetence.
There is a reason why I had a smiley after “investor” assumption. Of course I didn’t mean it literally. The point I was trying to make that original “backers” or rather early buyers paid the price below the market value at the time of delivery and if willing, could make a hundred to 150$ easily if decided to sell it.

Your argument that this phone purchase is a “reward” is not withstanding.
When you transfered money to Purism there were many options. Onlly one was with no strings attached. I believe it said “support” and there were a few amounts to contribute to the project (not sure - $10/50/100). The rest was tied to specific product to be received if the project survives. And for a good half of the campaign (if not longer) it was shown as pre-order during the checkout. Even though you ran a risk of the failed campaign , the company was still obligated to deliver a product to you once available. And once delivered , there is a return period (2-4 weeks) if something is wrong as well as a 1 year warranty and optional refund as well. My Jan 3rd 2019 pre order was very clear about this contractual relation.

Debcool · December 25, 2019, 8:53pm

@Caliga
It is not a question of getting more or less. The point is that things must go they way they are supposed to go. As they’ve been claimed.

There are two questions though:

1- Was it realy a crowdfunding campain (as “they” claimed it was) and in accordance to the US laws or not?

If:

yes, that’s great! No importation taxes on a reward for EU citizens no matter how parcel is delivered or from where it does come from.
not, we’ve been f@#$! up.

2- Have they realy partnered with a german reseller? Are they still partners?

if:

yes, it’s even better. All that the partner have to do, is to send the parcels all around the EU.
not, you already know my point.

Sadly, for what I read here and there it seems that it is not the case or not anymore?..

@Tatatirci

“…your whole anectodal experience is just a testimony of one agent / agency incompetence.”

You’re right, you know me so well. Actualy, I even never participated in a crowdfunding project… at all. Plus, the guy was my brother in law whom doesn’t even work for the governement… Wait! I don’t have any brother in law!? Damn, I am doing it again!

FYI, pre-orders started right after the campain was concluded. There was no transition just modifications on some informations that appeared on the page.

Next time you contribute(financialy I mean) to a project or buy anything take some printscreens or screencast while you do it. You’ll see it could realy help afterward.

I promise, I’ll stop teasing you after this one. Let’s say it is my christmas reward to you

https://www.wordreference.com/enfr/reward En->Fr
https://www.wordreference.com/fren/récompense Fr->En

cyslider · December 25, 2019, 10:40pm

I agree, I also was totally convinced it was a “you lose your money if things go wrong” crowdfund. Was surprised that I could get back my money.

So I also find the assumption legit, that this was not a buy and could be handled as reward/present. Or in fact currently even as Beta testing hardware.

I was also surprised by the additional taxes I would have to pay, when it came to it. Not that it matters anymore. But I guess this I could have known, maybe I even knew and forgot about it again…

Tatatirci · December 25, 2019, 10:45pm

Well, I did not see any of that, when I was going to get it and eventually pullled the trigger this January.
You can make a legitimate claim, then.
Though, it’s still a “loophole” to avoid proper taxing and import fees. I don’t see why it should be treated differently than a gift I’m sending there. The only advantage - difference is that as an individual I can send it as “used” and in open box , so they can’t determine the exact value and have to base it off the stated one.
Just weird, how they can let go of the money that easy at least it’s benefiting someone.
So, what would be the end cost (out of your pocket) in your country for receiving this phone ?

admsjas · December 26, 2019, 12:43am

@Debcool has a point. The initial backers of this project took a chance on putting out money up against this venture knowing if things took a downward turn we would be out that investment. It was a risk I took initially, a calculated risk but a risk nonetheless. We didn’t buy a phone because there was no phone to purchase. We were buying into an idea because at that point that’s all it was.

Tatatirci · December 26, 2019, 4:13am

It shouldn’t be about how you get something, but what you are getting and from where. Gifts, lottery or whatever it is, it’s still going through customs and getting taxed. Of course there are exceptions for specific items like some personal medical devices, etc.
I just didn’t know that some places do honor - grant the exclusion on something like this.

Debcool · December 26, 2019, 11:17am

Hi guys (girls?),

One thing that almost all the people don’t know is the importance of the vocabulary (something that I learned the hard way as many other did). Each word have very specific meaning in each domains (science, contract!! …) especialy when it comes to laws. Ask a lawyer, he/she will tell you that.

The biggest sources of that problem come from the mass media, business company, politics… (the way they use words + how they tell the message = Marketing, propaganda… *). The consequence is the misinterpretation that are made by the people because of the *. Afterwards, it propagates very quickly among the people and at the end becomes the “normal” meaning but it’s not.

A reward is not a purchase, not a gift nor an investment.
A backer is not a buyer and so on… (I think you’ve got these one now, he? ).

A crowdfunding campain has its own vocabulary too(that was used by Purism during the campain. Just go on kickstarter or indiegogo and compare, you’ll see)

The difficulties reside in many areas as you can imagine. Generaly speaking, the first trap is always at the begining but there could be more then one on the path and It is very tricky or impossible to get out of it when you have accepted the conditions unless you have proof. Sometimes, it’s not even enough…

I am not saying that it is the case here! What I am saying is that many things have been and still are quite nebulous regarding this “project”.
Especialy about the Invoice, the carrier that may add importation taxes even though Purism has a partner (who knows who?) for the UK/EU backers. Things could be different depending in witch batch you’re in. Where is the campain FAQ? Can’t find it anymore. …

That’s why I ask for an official document made and signed by Purism stating that it was not a purchase but a reward. It would help, at least for some of the non US backers, to prouve and eventualy avoid taxes that don’t apply on a reward from a crowdfunding campain.

Once again, if what Pusrism has claimed is true, there is no problem for the UK/EU backers. All Purism has to do is to send the devices to their partner here (at their costs, not ours!) then the partner send the device to each of us (at their cost or Purism).

Another project I backed in 2013, they claimed a partnership here in EU and it was true. They did what they claimed they will do. The parcel was send from a reseller in the EU and that was it. No question ask, no taxes, no headacke, nothing nada… Smooth! Everyone of us was just happy!

Ok, I am done for the day and on the subject…

Have a nice day and a happy new year!

A+
Debcool

reC · December 26, 2019, 5:28pm

an investment return then ?

well there was no finished product at the time we agreed to wire $ in Purism account but that means we ARE investors … or rather GAMBLERS