You replied to @dcz and intentionally dropped the leading “IMO” from the quote. What does that say about you? No need to answer, it was entirely rhetorical as well as, IMO, repetitive.
Please explain to me how the IMO has any relevance.
My point is that putting aside all of the so-called justifications, the loyalty from people who do not believe they have been scammed, and whatever else anyone on this board says or does, there is no real compliance with the FTC laws presented in article form earlier in this thread. That is obvious to any objective thinker who paid money and did not get either their product, nor the prescribed communications from Purism as is legally required by statutes. Either they give me a shipping date of less than thirty days, or it’s thirty days by law, or Purism cancels my order and sends my refund to me automatically. That’s the law. No exceptions unless I call Purism and tell them not to cancel my order… and I haven’t done that. And so the question is not if, but when a handful of people who got scammed by Purism, get serious about making Purism pay the price for their violation of this law as a justifiably angry group of cheated consumers. To anyone who can read, Purism is violating the law. This whole “pre-order” vs “order” claim has no legal bearing and just pisses people off even more. Also, no contract can bind a person to an agreement that violates the law. So it doesn’t necessarily matter what is in Purism’s contract. All that matters is what the courts can compel Purism to do, like giving timely refunds when the customer asks for a refund.
To the moderators here, I have a sincere question. I am considering starting a thread in this forum that is very similar to the one that tracks people who have received their Librem 5 and when they received it. But instead of tracking “orders received” it will be “refunds received”. The purpose will be to discuss what worked, how long it took to receive the refund after asking for it, and what level of law enforcement had to get involved to make it happen. Will this topic be allowed on this forum, or do I need to start a separate website somewhere else? I’ll take a “no-response” response from you to mean that Purism would not object. If you respond with a “no you can’t do that here” please tell us why not. That quote will make a great opener on my new website then. With the right information, I think I can probably assist in hundreds (maybe thousands) of people here getting their legally required refunds sent to them by Purism.
Something like this:
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For the record, Sky’s Edge is a company owned and run by a woman, Justine Haupt, I believe.
I think amosbatto makes a lot of good points here. I think a bunch of people make good counter points, but none of them stop making what Amos said true. Purism is doing more to push mobile Linux forward than any other company. In its absence, I don’t see the effort going forward.
I ordered a Librem 5 back in 2018. I got mine as promised.
The things that Purism is trying to do are truly complicated. They bit off a lot more than they could chew, and through sheer persistence are recovering from that.
I see Purism trying to improve, and for now that is enough for me. Also the continued development of the Librem 5 is very important.
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I agree with you and I hope shipping parity is reached soon (and the refunds issued) so that this kind of conversations can stop altogether.
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if that is your intention, can you explain why Purism should provide you with the platform to achieve that?
That is, why should this topic not be closed and your sorry ass punted from this forum? I will tell you for free that if it were my company and my company’s forum, this is exactly what would happen.
Just askin’. 
I would prefer muting the people choosing to post off-topic personal attacks over closing a thread that has been primarily reasonable conversation.
After all there are written rules about attacking the argument not the person…
Just sayin’.
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First: Let me step in by calling out the definition of “sorry ass”. https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/sorry-ass : rude slang Pitiful; worthless; utterly inferior or inadequate .
Second: I hate it when people use misleading quotes in attacks. You dropped the word “or”. It’s clearly intentional and rude. Do you not know what “or” means? Grow up. Here’s the full quote:
Look at yourself @irvinewade. Are you proud?
And your point is?
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You were participating in bad faith.
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Calling OP rude names.
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Intentionally using selective/partial quotes to exaggerate views/implications.
I would have thought that both would have been beneath you. Given that you now claim to miss my point, I guess not.
Seriously people, last chance to stop bickering at each other.
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Thank you for the exhaustive explanation.
Your argumentation makes sense.
Still for me it makes more sense to support Purism than to not support it at the moment because for me personally the good of having the Librem 5 product on the market outweighs the evil described by you.
We are not living in a perfect World and are forced to make choices every day. And for every person the answers are going to be different.
I don’t want to buy russian oil. But I don’t really want oil from SA, Qatar, and Iran either.
And I would buy myself a hydrogen fuel cell car, but outside of Germany there are currently so fuel H2 fuel stations, that this would hugely limit my freedom to drive across whole East Europe. So each and every one of us makes choices all the time in an imperfect environment.
With the options on the current market, I recommend Librem 5 USA.
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danielr and Privacy2,
i think it is complicated. You have a right to see it that way and it cost me time to got over that feeling in the first twelve or more month too, waiting for that device.
Its just… i saw folks from Purism posting in Social Media (Mastodon and the librem.one), and a Video of G. Günther at the FrOSCon 2022, talking in my neighborhood about Linux, Smartphones and Purism.
My money seems working and i do not feel ghosted. So if you are not familiar with Linux and with Linux User Groups and with Crowed Founding, its how Community is working all over the Planet with free Software.
And about that refund issue. Its kind of building a House, a complex item or a kind of a prototype.
Sure right now the risk is not so high for Purism to sell unused CPUs or Modems at the Market. But in the past it was. The Company have to pay on account a large number of CPUs before they where build and shipped. And when you do this and 90% of the Customers refund before you see a single dime its a huge Risk. This kind of Risk need to be balanced on all customers before they see the finished Product.
Right now the Librem 5 is available for 1299 Dollars, i bought it for 699 Dollars back in 2019. So you know. I think its more than fair, when i got my phone 2023 with a 600 Dollars worth more, after four Years of waiting. I like Purism’s work and if there will be an Update like a Librem 5 2.0 with another CPU, more RAM and an up to date Camera (or without one). I will this one too.
At the End, you have a legitimate point to complain. Its just… the issue get solved or improved by itself in the future. With more Linux Smartphone hardware and more CPUs build in US or Parts on storage hopefully the shipping parity will be history. A higher price helps to buy rarely items on the spot market too.
We have hard times behind and in the future, to build products. It not easy for small or even large companies to shift their chain of parts and supplies. Which make it more complex to build an deliver goods for a fix price announce in the past. We enter a new chapter in time, where globalization is not working so smoothly as before.
I feel a little sorry that you think about purism in that way you do but can understand your frustation - waiting and do not got the device sooner. Its just… before you got sad, you already could write the email support after two or three days and ask about your phone and if you do, you will get a friendly answer about the delivery time. As i had in the past, some weeks after i ordered.
Have a nice day,
Christal
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Thanks! I’m about to watch this video as well, ASAP (hopefully tomorrow): https://media.ccc.de/v/froscon2022-2797-is_there_hope_for_linux_on_smartphones.
And really looking forward to hear what @guido.gunther told us last month.
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I don’t know whether there is much point arguing about what the word “or” means but, yes, I do know what the word means.
For starters, “or” is ambiguous in the English language because sometimes it is intended to imply “exclusive or” and sometimes not. It isn’t clear which meaning was intended here.
If it meant “inclusive or” then both could be the poster’s intended outcome and therefore it is completely valid to comment only on one outcome.
Suppose alternatively that the poster meant “exclusive or” … it is reasonably clear from the context that the poster will not in fact control or determine which of the two outcomes actually occurs, so the second outcome could inadvertently occur as a result of the poster’s online crusade, so again it is completely valid to comment only on that one outcome.
Let’s be 100% clear what the poster said: he is waging an online crusade against Purism where a possible outcome is that the company fails (which is most certainly not in the interests of customers who are still waiting for their phones, and not in my opinion in the interests of the world at large).
This is an outcome that the poster happily accepts if caused by him.
Under those circumstances, I stand by my statements
- If it were my company, I would not tolerate that in my forum.
- I attribute negative worth to such a poster as far as it relates to the poster’s interaction with Purism and this forum.
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I started using Linux in 1995. And before Linux, I used emacs, twm, gcc, fvwm (and LaTeX, though it had a different license at the time) and other Free Software starting about 1987. I have several public FOSS projects and I’ve contributed code and money to other FOSS projects. And I can tell you that this is not how the community I grew up with works. I’m not sure what community you are talking about, because what you describe is something different than I was familiar with the last 30 years.
Perhaps you have more experience than me? The community I grew up with valued honesty and contributions more than PR. That was helped by the fact that in the early days there were hardly any for-profit companies participating (and the early years of RedHat were not without issues). Yes there has always been drama (I was part of egcs vs gcc and, as a user, supported xemacs vs emacs, so I know of the weaknesses and strengths of the FOSS model).
And to clarify:
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I’m not even waiting for a device. I was already pointing out deceptive PR coming from Purism in mid 2018 and was warning people about the likely upcoming disappointment long before danielr even purchased his product.
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If you read danielr’s comments you will see that he ordered his product long after Purism moved it from “crowdfunded” to a “product pre-order”. Did you even read his comments?
I disagree. The “refund issue” is all about how much trust you put in a company that has already broken its promises in regard to refunds. As amosbatto pointed out: There were many people who ordered their phones when Purism was promising immediate refunds. Purism retroactively changed those terms and for the most part did not honor refund requests for orders made earlier than that.
It’s as if you never actually read the complaints people have made and the discussions they have already had with Purism.
I hope you are happy with your purchase. Speaking for myself, I will warn people away from Purism. I understand their contributions to FOSS, but I more strongly disagree with the way they have behaved in regard to their customers – I do not make “devil’s bargains.”
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All of that distracts from the important question: Why did you cut the “or” from your quote and only list one condition? IMO it was because you wanted to make him seem unreasonable. I consider that “bad faith”.
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And all of your kibitzing about “or” vs “xor” and assuming the worst is BS since he already clarified (to Hristo after Hristo only quoted 1/2 … and danielr did this long before you decided to only quote 1/2 and drop the “OR”):
- Furthermore, you disparaged him and haven’t addressed that.
Bankruptcy is the proper and orderly legal option for a company who can’t meet its obligations toward customers and/or creditors. Many people think it’s a bad thing – I disagree. It was created exactly to be fair and orderly in how one protects the interests of customers/creditors/investors and the world at large while, at the same time, protecting the business.
You not wanting Purism to go bankrupt (i.e. fail) has many analogies to a client not wanting his drug dealer to go to prison. Is it a perfect analogy? No – Purism does have benefits. But I hope you get the general idea --> you are placing your wants+needs ahead of creditors and/or dissatisfied customers who are owed a refund (whether it’s from early refund policy or the FTC Mail Order Rule).
Interestingly, I attribute positive worth to the poster. I believe anyone who presents honestly held beliefs, stays on-topic, and presents significantly more information than disinformation is offering a positive contribution.
To be clear, I already have my phone. So my wants and needs are only relevant as far as the more general benefit to the world in fighting back against surveillance capitalism and surveillance generally.
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