Everything indicates that Purism is looking for another reason to excuse itself from the delays in the deliveries of the terminals. The lack of information about the situation in the delivered orders raises doubts about whether they are really being delivered.
I think it’s a big scam that the justice department should investigate.
Neither refund nor delivery of the order.
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Terminals? What terminals? Thread in the wrong forum category?
(The delay in the delivery of the L5’s is getting ever shorter, so you can’t be talking about them. Besides if the L5 was a scam, it would be a very, very elaborate one, and hardly a very profitable one.)
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This is already looking like a Round Table discussion…
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If you are situated in Germany, I invite you to have a personal look at my recently received Librem 5. 
It was ordered in June 2019.
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When did you order? (What did you order?)
See this: https://puri.sm/posts/where-is-my-librem-5-part-2/
Pandemic might be history, but if it is, then it’s endemic. Supply crunch was exceptional, but now it’s just normal, even if less intense.
But as far as I know, the phones are getting shipped at unprecedented rates despite that. You just can’t make, test, and send a thousand phones all in one day.
Also if you accuse someone of scamming, please provide some evidence. Next time you’ll get your post hidden until you do.
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Maybe the Justice Department should investigate all the libel that is being published in this forum…
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The delay in the delivery of the L5’s are getting ever shorter, so you can’t be talking about them.
What are you talking about? The estimated shipping times of the Librem 5 were:
Jun 2019: 6 months (not delivered yet)
Jun 2020: 6 months (not delivered yet)
Jun 2021: 5 - 10 months (not delivered yet)
Jun 2022: 12 months (not delivered yet)
Today: 12 months (not delivered yet)
So they went up and the actual waiting period for Librem 5 has been pretty much constant at 4 years, regardless of when you ordered your phone to this day.
@joan58, my best guess is that they don’t have enough money to pay for all their obligations and desperately try to avoid insolvency. Why else would they risk legal issues and huge fines by denying customers their rights to prompt refunds?
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One look at the 'Estimate your librem 5 shipping"-thread will tell you that delivery has been speading up.
And your ‘best guess’ is no more than outright speculation.
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Hey, I just bought a terminal for 300 bucks from a friend! (300 includes shipping.)
Good old fashioned tube, with DB25 serial and parallel ports. Green screen, 132 colunms by 24 rows.
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Any word on the delivery time on that?
Of course it’s speculation, that’s why I wrote “My best guess” instead of “Here come’s the truth”.
So sure there are other possibilities why Purism is violating federal rules, for example maybe they just don’t care about consumer rights? But IMHO that would be even worse, so I went with the least unethical scenario I could think of. But either way, there’s no excuse for violating federal rules for customer protection and quite frankly I don’t care why Purism is violating them, I just want them to get their shit together and spread awareness about this issue.
Edit: Per request, here’s (again) the proof that Purism is violating the FTC’s Mail, Internet, or Telephone Order Merchandise Rule:
- When you have to delay an order this comes into play:
When you learn that you cannot ship on time, you must decide whether you will ever be able to ship the order. If you decide that you cannot, you must promptly cancel the order and make a full refund.
If you decide you can ship the order later, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delay. You may use whatever means you wish to do this – such as the telephone, fax, mail, or email – as long as you notify the customer of the delay reasonably quickly. The customer must have sufficient advance notification to make a meaningful decision to consent to the delay or cancel the order.
- So if a customer requests a refund after a delay it means the following rules comes in to play:
When you must make a Rule-required refund, the following applies:
- If the customer paid by cash, check, money order, or by credit where a third party is the creditor, or by any other method except credit where you are a creditor, you must refund the correct amount within seven working days after the order is cancelled.
- If the customer paid by credit where you are a creditor, you must credit the customter’s account or notify the customer that the account will not be charged within one billing cycle after the order is cancelled.
So to summarize:
- Purism delayed the shipment of pretty much every Librem 5 order multiple times
- Multiple customers reported that they requested refunds due to the delays
- Purism in some cases denied the refunds. That’s a violation.
- In other cases Purism delayed the refunds (by weeks, months or sometimes even years). That’s a violation.
- Purism also didn’t seek the customers consent in every case after every delay and explicitly told them about their option for the right for a prompt refund due to the delay. That’s also a violation.
If you want me to also dig up the reports of users with denied and delayed refunds as proof, just let me know.
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Still, you call it your ‘best’ guess. (Implying there is at least some truth to it.)
Yes, the stories of holding back requested refunds are neither morally OK nor lawful (for the ones funded before the request policy has been changed).
But that is not true. The phone I funded in June 19 is here. It works and indeed better than I expected.
According to the estimate your shipment thread this seems unusual or your phone just got there in the last few days, because the last reports indicate that the newest orders which were shipped were from March 19.
About a week. It is used, not like it is waiting for components, unlike new 4 year old products.
(There’s a slider for the green background, but that’s camera exposure at 60Hz.) Also a “hard-kill” switch for power on the front Labeled “I/O”, a feature rarely found these days, unless hidden in the back.
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Wow! An impressive piece of kit! Only slightly less pocketable than the L5.
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That’s not what best guess means. It’s a guess and I here’s why it’s my best guess:
It’s a fact that Purism is violating the FTC rule. Proof above.
So there are two possible scenarios:
- Purism has enough money to pay for all their obligations (including refunds)
If that’s true than it would be highly unethical to violate the FTC rule and delay or deny refunds. Because if you have the money, you can just give it to your customers as the rule says. I don’t think that Purism is so unethical, that’s why this isn’t my best guess.
- Purism doesn’t have enough money
This explains why they don’t provide prompt refunds, because they need the money for salaries, production runs, etc. Of course that’s still unlawful and unethical, but it’s not as bad as option 1. That’s why this is my best guess.
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Alright then, I guess time will tell…
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The very thread you linked to has the last reported delivered phone being pre-ordered on 2019-04-29. A few posts above that are phones from May and even June.
The exact order of shipment depends on multiple factors (how fast someone replied to address confirmation e-mail, whether there were accessories requested, what region does it ship to, etc…), so it’s mostly, but not strictly monotonic.
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